Redevelopment of the Wallace-Perth Church property
April 18, 2010 - 3:42pm — Anonymous
Original post to this thread:
Just noticed some for sale signs at the Church. Anyone know what the zoning allows in that location?
Update:
The church has been sold and a residential developer is hoping to put in a set of condos, re-using the existing church building and adding a new one. Will keep this forum updated with news.
Events:
April 24 2011: Community Meeting
Other links:
Some old plans for a loft conversion for this space. No longer relevent.
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Opportunity for Perth Wallace
I think that the redevelopment is a great opportunity to help the Perth and Wallace corner become something much better. There is a great need to narrow the intersection to stop all the people who dont stop at the stop sign as they use the corner as a Symington shortcut and to make the corner safer for all pedestrians as traffic is only going in to increase. In the east end a lot of bad corners have been tamed using corner punchouts (which do not reduce parking by the way) and they really have made some corners much greener and safer. I hope that the developer sees this potential and decides to participate.
Perth Avenue Church
Firstly, I appreciate the positive comments. I have rehabbed several historic properties and I look forward to the re-adaptation of the church. However, I wish to clarify a misconception in one of the comments. The church will NOT be covered in stucco and was NEVER even considered as an option. The brick is generally in good condition and, after restoration, will shine!. Thank you for letting me clarify.
Great news, I never would
Great news, I never would have imagined you'd want to cover century brick with cheap stucco, not only a unnecessary expense but will take away the purpose you wanted a old church to convert, it's original beauty,
I'm happy to see this proposal move forward, I'm confident you will beautify the building and intersection, by restoring the old charm in the old building & complementing it with a new modern designed homes to north, I love that combination of the old and new,
looking forward to the buildings & the additions to our neighourhood
Thx for keeping us informed
Stucco Treatment
Thanks very much for the clarification and assurance that there is no stucco treatment planned for your development. The picture included on your signs around the property show a beige, uniform treatment on the outside of both buildings. There is not a brick in sight on the drawing which is creating the impression you are planning stucco finish.
Wallace-Perth Church Update
The developer of the former Perth Wallace Church site sent a letter updating their process and some of the changes they have made to their plan. They have submitted an application and there will shortly be another public meeting.Here is their update:
"January 12, 2012
Dear Neighbourhood Resident
On April 28, 2011, you participated in a community meeting with respect to the church redevelopment proposal at Perth and Wallace Avenues, Cornerstone Lofts. We appreciated your attendance and the support shown for your neighbourhood. We heard many thoughtful neighbours express their support for Cornerstone Lofts as well as some of their concerns. As you may remember, the presentation plans showed the renovation of the existing church structure into 23 residential condominiums, construction of an underground parking garage and a new 4-story 14 unit residential condominium building on top of the garage.
On October 20, 2011 we submitted our formal application for the redevelopment of the property. In the plans submitted, we addressed concerns expressed by the neighbourhood and the planning staff. I wish to bring you up to date on Cornerstone Lofts. The following is a summary of our changes that were submitted in our application.
Comments were generally related to the project as a whole (particularly parking), the church or the new building. The church renovation and elevations were generally well received and there was much support for this phase of our plan. We subsequently made minor changes to the church plans and submitted substantially the same plan as presented to you.
Most of the concerns expressed related to parking, the size of the units and the height of the new building:
1. The number of units – some expressed concern about the number of units in the proposed project. In our presentation, the church had 23 units and the new building contained 14 units for a total of 37 units. Under our application, the number of units was reduced by almost ten (10%) percent: 22 units in the church and 12 units in the new building for a total of 34 units.
2. The size of the units – some expressed concern that the proposed units were small and wished the new units to be similar in size to existing homes. The average size of the units in our presentation, although not small, was approximately 825 sf in the church building and 771 sf in the new building. There were 3 units over 1,000 sf. Under our application, we increased the average size of the units in the church building from 825 sf to 965 sf and in the new building from approximately 771 sf to 909 sf. There are now 10 units over 1,000 sf.
3. The height and west elevation of the new building – some expressed concerns relating to these issues. Our presentation plan showed the building as 3 stories with the 4th floor setback approximately 3 ft from the 3rd fl. The 4th fl covered approximately 67% of the 3rd floor with setbacks from the 3rd floor on the west, north, east and south sides of 5’, 5’, 5’ and 5’ respectively. There were no setbacks for the stairwells Under our application, the 3rd floor is now setback from the 2nd fl. by approximately 5 ft. and the 4th floor is further set back from the 3rd floor by over 16 ft. The revised 4th floor has been incorporated into the 3rd floor units making them two levels. We also reduced the footprint of the floor from 67% to 40% of the 3rd floor; eliminated the need for the 2 staircases and elevator shaft to go the the 4th floor thereby reducing the mass of the building; increased the west, north, east and south building setbacks to 16’-5”’, 13’, 13’ and 6’ respectively. This significantly reduced the massing and impact of the 4th floor
4. Parking issues and the number of parking spaces - some expressed concerns about availability of parking. As a gesture of goodwill, we have left the parking lot open to neighbourhood use at their own risk until construction starts. However, we caution our neighbours that the lot is NOT open to the storage of vehicles and boats, etc. The parking plan as submitted did not change from our initial presentation Our traffic engineer prepared a report with respect to traffic and parking and submitted same with our application. The engineer’s analysis indicates that with the ready availability of public transportation, the use of car share spaces and availability of on street permit parking, the plan as submitted meets the requirements of the city. A copy of his report is available.
I thank you for the opportunity to bring you up to date and we look forward to meeting with you again at the next public meeting. You should receive notice of same shortly.
Thanking you in advance, I remain
Cornerstone Lofts Limited
Signed
___________________________
Mark McGroarty
Cc: Ana Bailão"
Wallace Perth Church Development
It is great to see the developer has taken some of the nieghbourhood concerns into account. One issue that I think needs to be addressed is the stucco treatment planned for the outside of the church. Not sure why anyone would bother buying an old brick church building just to cover it up? All of the buildings in are neighbourhood are predominantly brick exteriors. Even the newest developments in the area are brick. This project should also be done in brick rather than a cheap finish like stucco.
I agree that the developer
I agree that the developer should go with brick to stay with the look and feel of the neighbourhood.
This will be a great
This will be a great development for the community! Hope it gets swift approval :)
Perth-Wallace Church meeting notes from Bloordale Press
The Bloordale Press has posted an article about the April 24th meeting:
http://thebloordalepress.wordpress.com/news/development-corner-stone-lof...
Comments about the Perth-Wallace church meeting?
Curious to hear peoples' comments, especially those that might be directly affected by it due to close proximity.
I didn't take notes, but I'll post a few thoughts soon.
-Vic
Perth Church Early In The Process
Nice to see Councillor Bailao there this early in the process. Great of the developer to be there early in the process and to quickly let locals have a say instead of the usual snow job that developers give.
Everything presented was preliminary and has not even been submitted to planning yet so there could be many changes down the road.
Overall I like the direction they are going and welcome more neighbours next to me and life and energy it will bring to the area. Density within reason is a good thing and having the church walls and towers remain helps keep some of the history of the area. Density always means more, building new homes like the ones built in 1913 would be a bad environmental idea and is not economically viable. Here are a few points that crossed my mind.
--The new 4 story building in the north Parking lot seems a bit large, especially for the people directly north. I think setting back the top floors on the west and north side would reduce the obvious effects on the people next door.
--The church roof would be replaced by 2 stories of glass floors. I like the look but am a bit concerned that these floors will be looking into a lot of backyards. Maybe a reduction of a floor and a setback will help. This would also be a sizable change in the church motif which I think is something that people would not want.
--The parking will be underground but not enough for all units. The idea of promoting units without parking for a car free lifestyle (there would be two zipcar spots) is a trend in North America right now BUT if it is true that there may be a change in the municipal law that would allow the units without cars to buy on street parking then that would be an issue for two reasons. One there will already be reduced parking because all of the people who have been freeloading by using the church parking will in theory now have to park on the street day and night. 2. You are now also adding a further number of church resident cars and their visitors to the mix. This could make the Perth Wallace corner very congested.
--Some people at the meeting went on about how bad parking is in the area at this time and frankly thats a load of baloney. For some reason people always think things are worse than they are.Despite Not having a garage or alley I have never experienced any problem parking anytime (except church day) in 10 years. Rarely do I have to park more than 4 spaces away from my front door and often over night there are 5 or 6 spaces at Perth and Wallace. This could change a bit because of allowing church residents to get street parking and I warn everyone that if this law changes then the people at 351 Wallace and at the future development on the north side will be asking for the same thing. There needs to be real clarification on how this will play out. I dont think parking is an issue right now but I wonder how bad it could become. Remember too....what will the impact be on parking closer to Bloor when the Metrolinx "mobility Hub" is completed? I can see part of Perth becoming one way and there being i hour daytime parking for non permitees to control traffic and parking.
--Visitor Parking is 4 spaces if I read the map correct and that is not enough. With 351 Wallace we got them to expand visitor parking and there is still not enough. My experience has been that traffic planners live in a dream world. I think they need more visitor parking and a method to stop residents from using it (which is an issue at 351).I think they could squeeze a few more parking spots in the underground. We all know how many the church got in there so I think there is definitely room for improvement.
--Some people thought the units were too small but they are very similar to the sizes in other condos that I have seen. I dont think there is any issue with this considering that many homes in our area have 3 units, each the same size as the smaller condo sizes. Housing diversity is a good thing and over time its not just young people who live in small condos. Many urban people retire and downsize into small condos. Some people worried about families but this area has been undergoing a boom of new families over the last 5 years and some of the housing stock is reverting to single units; I dont think we will run out of families soon. The development on the north side of Wallace when that happens could be a better place to insist on some family size units (although that does not mean that families will live in them).
--Some people had issues with the use of the alley to enter the building. I think its a great idea because it will reduce cars on Perth and provide more green space on Perth. With the developer giving up some land to widen the alley as needed I dont see any issues, it would be where it should be, at the back of the building where all the other garages are.
To Councillor Bailao I have suggested to the city for a few years that the sidewalk at Perth and Wallace should be changed to the narrower cutout style that you see in the east end. I have really noticed a massive increase in speeding traffic and cars not stopping at all at the PW corner. A cutout would be safer for walkers and slow traffic down.I think we have an opportunity to actually work with the developer to make the entire intersection more green and safer.
Again this is all early and the developer has said he will come back and meet again as the process develops so I encourage people to submit their thoughts and be part of it.
It sold for $2,000,000 Plans
It sold for $2,000,000
Plans for a loft conversion were drawn up a few years ago ... 22 units, if I remember correctly. No idea why it didn't fly at that time.
Although I'll be sad to see the congregation leave, I'll at least be able to park on a Saturday!
Pics?
That icx listing is offline now - does anyone have pics of the inside of the church elsewhere? Would love to see what it looks like.
Most of the congregation now
Most of the congregation now lives up near Steeles so most will not miss the drive. The few that still live downtown have told me they will commute to the new location.
The church will be a loft
The church will be a loft conversion. The sale took a while as they had to make sure that it could pass muster at City planning. It will be cool to have new people around but keep some physical history of the past. The church replaced the smaller original church at Ernest Avenue and Perth in 1913. Hopefully the Adventists will enjoy their new home.
It's pretty hard to dig
It's pretty hard to dig through the City's online Council documents, but with a little work I found that an application in March 2008 to include the church in the City's Inventory of Heritage Properties was approved in June 2008:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-13230.pdf
and
http://app.toronto.ca/HeritagePreservation/details.do?folderRsn=2437888&...
Could be an interesting loft project, I imagine...
Church Sale
I know the sale has been bitter sweet for some attendees. They are going to miss this great church and neighbourhood location but are looking forward to a new and bigger place with better parking facilities.
Church has been sold
The "sold" signs went up on the church a couple of weeks ago. Everyone keeps asking me about this, but I don't know any further details about it. So I thought I'd just revive this forum topic and see if anyone else knows who bought it, what's happening with the site, etc.
Any ideas / insights?
ICX listing for Perth/Wallace church
More info about the sale here:
http://www.icx.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9187314
Church Zoned R2
This land is zoned R2 (residential) at a density of 0.6 and with a height allotment of approx 3 stories (the church is higher than that already). Obviously the zoning changed long after the church was built.
No matter what happens to the church, whether it is converted to lofts, or is torn down (It does not have a historical designation) and townhouses are built, the new owner will have to apply for some kind of rezoning and generally speaking the City will be in favour of increasing the density level for the site which makes sense.
In terms of the church sale itself that may be tricky as they are asking for a 2007 price (they have been trying to sell since then) but we now have 2010 interest rates. I am just guessing but the 2.3 million dollar may have to come down a few hundred thousand to make this enticing enough for a developer.
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