Toronto Star Neighbourhood Map, v2.0

Toronto Star Neighbourhood Map, v2.0Toronto Star Neighbourhood Map, v2.0

On Sunday, The Toronto Star published an article about Toronto's neighbourhood names, and released an updated version of their online neighbourhood map.

One thing you may quickly notice on their map is that our neighbourhood is left out. We're still an unlabeled grey area sandwiched between The Junction and High Park on the west, Roncesvalles and Parkdale to the south, Wallace-Emerson and Brockton Village to the east, and Carleton Village to the north.

One other oddity is that The Star uses a Google map as a data source, and you can see in the underlying Google map that this neighbourhood is incorrectly labeled as "Silverthorn", which is actually a neighbourhood north of us in the Eglinton and Keele area.

The timing of this article and map is interesting, as there is already a group of local residents who are working on giving the neighbourhood a properly recognized and standardized name. Kevin Putnam was interviewed by the Toronto Star, and they started their article with the following:

Kevin Putnam knows exactly where he lives. The problem is he can't quite put a name to it.

He doesn't live in The Junction or High Park. Those neighbourhoods lie to the west. Nor does he live in Roncesvalles or Parkdale, which are further south. He also has to rule out Brockton and Wallace Emerson, neighbourhoods just to the east, and Carleton Village, to the north.

Such namelessness makes Putnam a relative rarity in a city of fierce neighbourhood loyalties. "I've been living here for five years now and I'm tired of trying to tell people where I live," he says.

So these days find Putnam among a small group of residents trying to coin a name for their nabe, since a one-time moniker – The Junction Triangle – seems to have fallen into disuse. It's that important.

There will likely be more news coming from this neighbourhood naming group very soon.

What are your thoughts on our neighbourhood's name? Do people commonly refer to it as the "Junction Triangle" or any other names? Feel free to discuss it here.

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old chinese restaurant

hi i'm trying to remember the name of an old chinese restaurant in the junction,it was on dundas north of dupont,it might have been accross the st from the west town rest,the only memory i have is of the sign it ran from the top to the bottom of the building,the sign might have been palm trees or a hula girl

old restaurant

I remember the Amo, used to go there for Won Ton soup and an eggroll most every Sat with my Mom.
But its was between Pacific and Keele on the north side. I don't remember the sign.

Old Chinese Restaurant

There was once a restaurant in the Junction called Amo's. It was there from the second world war until about the mid 80's. I am not sure if this is the one that you are thinking about because I do not remember the sign but this restaurant was frequented by my family.

Fuzzy Boundries

Thanks for the tip on the fuzzy boundaries site.

Reason Is.....

Most residents do not see this area as the "The Junction". We view "The Junction" as the area north of us across the tracks.

I can see it being favorable for RE agents, naming this area after the Junction, but we wont get into that discussion, at least not today.

The Fuzzy Boundaries website mentioned above, will have more info on this and the blog should bring you up to date.

Ranajit

Maps

I thought that the Toronto neighbourhood map was a really good stab for a first or second try at it. Why can't it just be part of The Junction?

Neighbourhood Naming Event - May 13th

Just wanted to bring to your attention that that the notice for the neighbourhood naming event on May 13 has been posted on the SJTRA site. You can get all the details about the speakers and the event plans on this site or by visiting the new Fuzzy Boundaries web site at www.fuzzyboundaries.ca I hope that all of you that have been participating in the discussion here can make it out (ranajit, Vic, scottD, dbanerjee, Michael Armstrong and Whitney).

I notice that all the hip

I notice that all the hip parts of the city want to be a "Triangle" now. At least we could claim to be first at something for a change. : )

Neighbourhood Naming

Whitney, you have a great grasp of the situation and I don't think I would disagree agree with anything you say. However a name could add a lot to the neighbourhood and we will be discussing those implications at an event we are organizing on Wednesday, May 13 at the Perth Avenue Co-op at 7 p.m. The event notice is just being prepared, but I can tell you that local historian Michael Monastyrskyj and former City of Toronto Planner Beate Bowron will be discussing the neighbourhood's history and the importance of neighbourhood identities. I hope that you can make it out for the event.

Naming the neighbourhood

My thoughts:

About "Junction Triangle"

1. Hey haven't I heard that somewhere before? Oh yeah, "The Junction" is where our neighbours to the northwest live. Adding the word "triangle"isn't the way to carve out our own identity. (And if I lived in the Junction, I'd be peeved about having my name ripped off -- they've done a lot of work to create their brand.)

About naming in general.

1. Whether a name has been used in the past isn't going to affect the success of its adoption. Any name that isn't long or confusing will be used and accepted if you simultaneously push its adoption by the people and organizations who talk about us (e.g. Media, City Council, geographers, real estate).

2. Our neighbourhood's reputation will depend on how we communicate what happens here, not on the name itself. Think about it: There is nothing inherently positive or negative about the words "Apple", "Boeing", "The South Junction Triangle Residents Association", "Adam Giambrone" or "The Beach". How we feel about them is based on what we know about them and not what they are called.

Cheers

Perth Royce

It is not a mystery that the intersection of Perth-Royce(Dupont) is a bit of a *#%$-hole with a fronting "strip mall" which will likely be leveled much like one that was at Symington and Dupont which is now a vacant lot ready for another condo. Memories of Landsdowne and Dupont or whatever vacant plot two to six blocks away that is a done deal. Anyway, I grew up in Parkdale where my grandmother and son were born and we always knew this particular area as the Junction. Add a "Triangle" to the name starting in the 70s if you want. Hey: Parkdale was rough, the Junction a no-go-zone. These days I live here on Edwin Ave. where my daughter was born and it is a much different place much like Parkdale or Harlem or whatever recently gentrified area that you want to talk about. Anyway, to me including the name "Junction" intuitively seems to be the way to go unless you want to tie in the Rolls [Royce] dealership on Dupont near Shaw with upcoming developments over here. I'd vote "Junction Triangle" unless I was a developer in which case I'd call our hood (dibs on the name): The Royce Junction!!
Michael

Perth-Royce district of West Toronto

Hi Ranajit,

Yes, I've seen the archive pictures of people playing baseball in Perth Square. Older residents, at least, know that this part of Dupont used to be called Royce. There used to be a prominent business called Royce-Dupont Poultry. I'm not sure, but I think the name changed in the fifties. I'll have to check.

However, I'm not sure you got the point of my first message. You are discussing the name of the neighbourhood some people, including myself, know as the Junction Triangle. Kevin Putnam pointed out that this name was only coined in the 1970s. That was news to me but having looked into it, I now think Kevin is right. The earliest reference to the name I could find is the same 1976 Dick Beddoes column Kevin mentions.

When Jutta showed me the documents about the creation of Campbell Park, I learned for the first time that the area I know as the Junction Triangle used to be called Perth-Royce and that that designation was recognized by the City.

That said, I don't know how much of a neighbourhood identity local residents had back then, just as I don't know whether people living in my current "Wallace-Emerson" area have any sense of neighbourhood identity. Perth-Royce is an intersection (Perth-Dupont) that would have served as a handy reference point, but did the people living in this area feel any sense of pride or loyalty towards their "Perth-Royce" area, the way many people in Parkdale and the Beach did (and do)? I don't know. Maybe, but maybe not.

Perth-Royce district of West Toronto

If you go to the Toronto.ca site and look under their Photo Archive Database. Type in "Perth Avenue" and alot of old picks from the 20's and 30's will appear.

I found a few baseball pics there aswell. You can see the old u-haul property as well as the GO station (no bridge - same level with Bloor St) among many other pics of the neighborhood.

Also, Dupont Street use to be Royce Avenue back in 1910's. Alot of the database refers to it this way.

The collection is very extensive. Check it out, if you get the chance:
http://gencat.eloquent-systems.com/webcat/request/DoMenuRequest?SystemNa...

Ranajit

Perth-Royce district of West Toronto

I work for a group called CELOS. We're interested in local history and have posted some material on our Campbell Park website. The other day Jutta Mason who leads CELOS gave me a small stack of documents about the creation of Campbell Park. Some of these are letters written by a group called the Perth-Royce Community Council. On June 23, 1944 Beryl Campbell, the group's secretary, sent a letter to the Commissioner of Parks. It reads in part:

The Perth-Royce community, as you probably know, is that area in West Toronto enclosed on three sides by railroad tracks with Bloor Street as the southern boundary.

I went to the Toronto Public Library website and searched old issues of the Globe and Star. I found several references to the "Perth-Royce district." The references I found date from the 1940s to 1950. A 1944 Globe article refers to an organization called the Perth-Royce Ramblers. A 1948 article mentions the Perth-Royce Community Fair. There also was a Perth-Royce Softball League. When I searched the Globe and Star using "Perth-Royce" most of the references were to baseball and softball. There used to be a lot of baseball in Perth Square.

Naming process

I heard longer the name, larger the property tax afterwords ;)

the star article

So I went to the article on the toronto star website and was looking at the interactive map and looks like the correct name is there but not the right area?! still says silverthorn in the background...

http://www3.thestar.com/static/googlemaps/starmaps.html?xml=090120_shape...
it says...
"Neighbourhood: South Junction Triangle"

Updated map

Yes, The Star released a version 3 of their map. Here's a list of the changes:
http://thestar.blogs.com/maps/2009/03/map-of-the-week-the-stars-neighbou...

Unfortunately they still left out the Sterling / south Perth area.

The "Silverthorn" error is Google's fault though. The Star has no control over the underlying map.

Naming process

Dave and Ranajit:

Kevin can probably answer this better than I can, so I might let him fill in the details when he's available....

Right now, there's no list of names or anything like that. There's a community meeting being planned for sometime in April, where this project will be presented to everyone, along with some background of existing names, local history, the need for local identity, etc...

The actual method for naming is still undetermined, and there is no list of names. This is totally up to the community to decide at the public meeting(s).

I personally am rooting for The West Junctiondalecourt Village Triangle. ;-)

List of Names?

I like West Junction Village.
More suggestions: Junction Village, Bloor Junction, South Junction, Bloor Dundas West Village, Dundas West Village.

Ranajit

List of Names?

Hi there,

I skimmed your notes. Pardon me if you've already responded to the following questions.

First, does the FBG have a list of suggested names?
Second, is there a formal (or even informal) method by which a name gets approved and takes hold?

How about Junctionville? Junctiondale? Junctioncourt? West Junction Village? Junctionton? The Junc? The Junction Annex? Junctionvalles? The Triangle? St. Junctionton? Junction Park? Actually, I like the last one.

Dave

Plans for Fuzzy Boundaries

That would be a great help Scott. We are just completing arrangements for an event in late April with a local historian and someone who can speak about the value of neighbourhood identities.
While the process has not been determined yet, there will be a way for all residents to make comments and suggestions about the naming process.

Don't Diss Parkdale

Thats MY Parkdale pride speaking. : ) No offense but Parkdale is very improved and I was part of a few of the initiatives that helped. As I said I lived there for 23 years and retain many close relationships in the area. Now the complaint is that it is getting too popular! I would say that your comments on groups being not interested in Parkdale are not 100% accurate and reflect other groups trying to create their own niches and BIA's as Parkdale was such a large area. Its true in the past that groups, especially those in Sunnyside and Brockton wanted to distance themselves and I can understand why but these days Parkdale is pretty tame compared to other areas nearby and is as safe as others. Only somebody who lived there for a long time would know this but my thoughts on the other areas are anecdotal.

If there is an opportunity to vote on or forward ideas for a new name I will happily submit and encourage other to do so too.

Neighbourhood Identity

This naming process is a community improvement project. At this stage the Fuzzy Boundaries Group is simply trying to create some interest and demonstrate the value of having a distinct identity.
There are merits to the name Junction Triangle and a lot of confusion as well. It is important to get the facts on the table. It is incorrect to say "historically" that the area has been referred to as J.T. The name emerged in the mid-seventies, was used for a short time and subsequently fell out of use.
While long term residents in the area are naturally familiar with the name because the environmental action committee actively used the term, newcomers have never heard it. Real Estate agents don't use it, major media outlets dropped it and the City has never reached a definitive idea about what to call the neighbourhood.
At this point, we have an opportunity to discuss all the possibilities and are not beholding to any name because the area does not have one. We could revert to J.T. or maybe something new and better will emerge and the residents will choose to adopt it.
While it's a small point, I agree that the reputations of Cabbagetown and the Junction have improved, I don't think Parkdale has gotten any better. Roncesvalles Village was created specifically to distance themselves from any Parkdale association. Liberty Village and the West Queen West Triangle on the fringes are making a concerted effort to avoid any association with Parkdale.
So after your lengthy responses Scott, should we put you down as undecided?

Wallace Junction

In 2003 or 04 some residents talked about naming the area and Wallace Junction came up. But then it was realized that no junction had existed there (a siding did but Junction Siding is well, not that exciting). Then it changed to Wallace Station but that had been taken by the condo and there was debate as to whether a station had ever existed there (I don't think so). The bridge on Wallace had been built in 1907 in lieu of a road to get workers to work who were trapped in a rail triangle according to the West Toronto Junction Historical Society story in 1996 (that by the way called the area "Today's Junction Triangle" in a positive light as part of a story on saving the Wallace Bridge). Archive photos show no station at Wallace and Dundas either. It was around this time that Kevin Putnam started to envision a new name. I don't know why the City came up with Wallace Junction, I may be mistaken but that document may be the only time I have ever sen the City use that name.

Junction Triangle Moniker

"All the references to Junction Triangle in the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail appear in stories are about pollution, crime, poor neighbourhoods and economic decline."

As was Cabbagetown, now one of the most sought after downtown addresses in Toronto and an example of renewal.

As was The Junction, home of polluting industry and stockyards and economic decline, now a hot emerging neighborhood who have kept their formally bad name and incorporated it into things such as THe Junction Arts Festival.

As was Parkdale, generally called Crackdale for the 23 years I lived there, and now Parkdale is hot and happening and reclaiming its Parkdillian pride with hats and t-shirts for sale with Parkdale on the front.

Why not Junction Triangle?

The Junction Triangle name then is at least 30 years old and I have heard many long time residents use it at meetings and events. So it exists on some level in the public mindset. That doesn't mean there has not been confusion since 1900 about where The Junction proper or West Toronto Junction are. We can see that from some of the comments and maps posted here. I suspect that Triangle entered the picture to help end the confusion or further pinpoint a larger area. While 30 years may not be as long as the other names, this area has been in one form or another under the Junction umbrella of influence in some form for a long time. Our area was very influenced by The Junction proper we often forget that it was a rail term and those lines surround us.

In terms of crime and problems in the past it has not stopped lots of new residents from moving to the area, even those like me who lived south in Parkdale and knew about the issues of the late 70's. We came here because we saw the area changing and the name really had no impact on us whatsoever and in fact many of the new residents near me had never heard about any issues in the past. Whether those issues in the past bear much now is debatable but Toronto Life Magazine, which like it or not creates a lot of perceptions about the City and its hoods, was calling this area the Junction in 2005 but more importantly in their "Emerging Neighborhoods" story calling this a "Hot Spot". Most of the buyers who now move into the area were not alive when the worst issues of pollution and crime plagued the area. They, the future of the area probably do not have any negative connotations with any name. In my opinion saying that Junction Triangle is holding the area back is just not true any more especially with the newer generation that is moving in and renewing the area.

Lets be clear though, I am not against creating or adapting a new name for the area (and trying to end confusion once and for all) but I think it is important not to just throw out or deny our history (whether 130 or 30 years) to cover up or change perceptions. And I am not a big fan off creating phony quant names that help real estate agents more than reflecting shared history and the pride it can create. The best way to change perceptions is via action and involvement such as RailPath or community gardens on Paton. The Junction and The Junction Triangle is part of the area history and could become a source of pride just as other areas have kept their notorious names. I have suggested elsewhere that rail was a very important part of the past until the late 70's in the area and now we see that rail will become an important factor in shaping the area in the future and that the word Junction has in fact a long history with this area that relates to rail, and predates the 1970's. Lets rethink the name but lets not throw out history because it is part of a brief uncomfortable past.

For the record I have suggested some name ideas or themes to locals myself including the word diamond as in Junction Diamond or The Diamond as diamond denotes rail switches (such as the North Toronto Diamond) that have continued to operate in our area since it was developed. It’s too bad that our area has lost all the writers names (albeit British ones!) that once could be found here (although ironically the “Literary Guide to Toronto” implies that those names did nothing to create any local writers of note: that is changing). Lets hope that if a name is adapted or changed that it has some reflection of area history and I am at least confident that we will not end up with "Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction" which will die a quiet death.

About The City

The city's use of the name Junction Triangle was short-lived. According to records filed in the Toronto Library system, the City of Toronto used the moniker Junction Triangle in published documents for seven years - from 1979 to 1986. The Planning department first used the term in three planning documents published in 1979. They used it again in 1980 for the revised planning document and for the last time in 1981 in a report about draft by-laws.
The city's health department used the term Junction Triangle in a series of reports about the health of local residents beginning in 1982. Their last report using the name appeared 23 years ago (1986) in a study called "Junction Triangle historical cohort cancer study : a study of cancer incidence in an urban neighbourhood."

"Wallace Junction"

The City has also referred to this area as "Wallace Junction". See the "Wallace Junction Focus Area" / "Wallace Junction Community improvement Plan" announcement here:
https://www.junctiontriangle.ca/WallaceJunctionFocusAreaMeeting

Junction Triangle Moniker

The name Junction Triangle emerged in the mid-seventies when local residents formed a group to fight pollution from the area factories. Major Toronto media picked up on the name and it first appeared in the Globe and Mail in a November 23, 1976 column by Dick Beddoes. The Globe and Mail used the term periodically for the next decade and a half. It was last used by the Globe in a 1993 article about factory closings in the area.
Junction Triangle first appeared in the Toronto Star in a June 1979 ad placed by the City of Toronto about a local planning meeting. It was first used in an editorial context in August of the following year in a story about toxic smells in the neighbourhood. The Star did not use the term from 1992 to 2002 and last published it in a 2003 article.
The moniker was never used in a positive context in either paper. All the references to Junction Triangle in the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail appear in stories are about pollution, crime, poor neighbourhoods and economic decline.

Wow those maps are bad

Official City of Toronto Neighbourhood Map - Christie Pits is included in this area! This map is a bureaucrats product and doesnt reflect real communities.

BlogTO neighbourhood listing - Obviously a hipsters map as Ossington is now a community on its own. South Parkdale is not in Parkdale because there are no lounges on Springhurst Avenue and sadly Garrison disappears in favor of the condo Gods, Liberty Village. Can Drake Village be far away?

Toronto Neighbourhoods book/website - This book and website incorrectly name our neighbourhood "West Toronto Junction". They are partially correct as the area north of Dupont historically was called West Toronto Junction, as opposed to The Junction. I have maps of this but alas they did botch our area but then oddly got thing like Carleton correct (most people below the tracks at our end have never heard of it so tracks do separate).

Toronto Real Estate Board -They know what they are doing.

MyHood.ca - They some help with spelling too.

West Toronto Junction

I think the tracks north of Dupont were the border of West Toronto Junction. Here's the map from the West Toronto Junction Historical Society:
http://www.wtjhs.ca/jmap2.gif

It's interesting that someone living at Jane and Bloor (NE corner) has more right to be called a resident of The Junction than someone who lives at Osler and Cariboo. :)

map error

That Silverthorn thing just started appearing a day or so ago. I tried to find the place to send Google a message about the mistake but man you just go in circles.

I would add that the Junction Triangle is found in many places as a reference to this area. The City itself calls it that on many documents. The "Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction" name I think was the result of amalgamation budget cuts more than anything else as all three names were distinct before.

Other neighbourhood maps

It's pretty interesting that no matter where you go on the 'Net, there are different names for this neighbourhood. Here are all the neighbourhood maps I could find, and they all name this area differently, or not at all!

Toronto Star Neighbourhood Map, v2.0

Hey Vic,

Good find. Saw that in the morning, but never noticed the Silverthorn part, looks like someone fell asleep at google maps.

Interesting as it maybe but some of the locations just refer to a park or something else in the neighborhood, which is a good reference. But not sure if it defines the neighborhood. But I guess naming a neighborhood will not keep everyone happy, I use The Beach as an example.

Anyhow, hopefully they will add us to the map - I emailed them already and referred them to this site :)

Ranajit