Junction Triangle Traffic Study
October 14, 2011 - 4:10pm — vic
Please use this forum for discussions specific to our local neighbourhood Traffic Study which has been initiated by Ward 18 Councillor Ana Bailão.
meeting notes
Perhaps I could have done a quick summary earlier.
In the first half of the meeting people raised specific concerns about dangerous driving behaviour on residential streets. Many people appreciated the complexities of the fundamental problem.
Drivers on Edwin frequently drive on the sidewalk. At times like this weekend when there are highway closures, traffic on Bloor is insane, and drivers look to escape by ducking up Symington. In aggregate, these desperation moves really only slow things down, but it's inevitable. Traffic calming measures can't be used on Symington as it is a bus route.
Other streets are also being used as irrational escapes in some cases changes could be made, probably driving more traffic onto Symington.
Some causes of the increase in traffic include development on Keele both the new condo near Dundas and the massive development around St Clair. Development at Lansdowne four more buildings are in the works. Technically the Galleria development has already got most of the needed approvals so it could restart at any time.
More broadly there was a recent report that Toronto has the most tall buildings under construction of any city in the world.
The population density both locally and across the city is increasing dramatically. The lowest density form of transportation is the car that cars are squeezing each other off the road.
Finally someone opened the bike lane can of worms. I think there were two people who simply wanted Dupont bike lanes removed. One woman objected that she rode a bike and felt safer with the bike lanes. At the time she thought she might be the only one and seemed intimidated, but would soon find out she was far from alone. Another woman at the back was a friend of the cyclist who had been killed at the Dupont underpass and was there to remind us of the very real safety concerns addressed by the bike lanes.
An elderly gentleman suggested that cyclists could go up Keele and across the bike lane on Davenport. He was reminded that the Keele underpass is narrow very busy and dangerous, the route would also involve a level crossing. It really seemed that he had never thought about that. Another person tried to explain that hills are quite a bit more significant to cyclists.
An older woman in the front seemed to feel safety concerns of cyclists could be obliterated if cyclists were just given an assurance that drivers were really nice people, and that everybody could just get along. She didn't really pretend to understand the issue very well. She was adamant and quite determined that the bike lanes should be removed.
The two did seem frustrated. They seem to have expected their opinions would meet universal agreement, so they didn't need to research they arguments. They clearly had not considered the issues thoroughly.
Ana's position was that the lanes were put in without sufficient consultation and they should not be removed without a better consultation process. It sounds like there will be some kind of group to consider the issue.
Thanks for the meeting notes
Warren, Thanks for sharing the notes from the meeting.
I live on Symington and haven't really notice any more cars then the usual. I do however notice more trucks(big&small) the ones that bring the metal to the depot on ernest ave, i guess with the increase of commodity in metal price things are good . I did ask the police to do a blitz on unsafe trucks that come to sell the metal. I will also follow through with a call to the Provincial Goverrnment to see if we can give Solways and Sons a hard time with unsafe trucks, which their are many, since the City really can't do anthing.
Regarding the bike lanes you are going to get opposition from people, regardless what side people are on with bike lanes. Cyclist are going to get blamed. JF
RE:Local Traffic Plan Meeting at Perth School
From Jack Fava:
This post will also be sent to Anna's office as well.
I was told by my neighbour that she was disappointed with the way the local Traffic Plan meeting went that was held at Perth School the other night. She was most annoyed by some people asking for more bike lanes in an area that is already bumper to bumper traffic, specially DuPont street, caused by the bike lanes. Traffic that is non-stop from 7am-7pm.
We hear about people been concern with diesel trains and the health risk associated with that, asking for clean electric train, yet we have a health problem that exist in ward18/JT as we speak caused by co2 pollution. I think this is real issue, yet we pretend that it's doesn't exist, so we ask for more bike lanes. Hello, the lights are on but no one is home. We need more bike like we need a hole in our heads. I know Anna is smart enough to know this is not a smart direction to go.
The other issue is the crazy and dangerous intersection of Symington and Bloor and soon to be crossed daily by the community kids who will be attending the new Boys and Girls club. This is an issue we should be addressing and not more bike lanes.
Is this post for real? Bike
Is this post for real? Bike lanes are causing traffic delays?! Traffic is heavy on Dupont because it's an east-west artery across a heavily populated part of town. The slow traffic lights at Dundas West/Annette/Dupont don't help either.
If bike lanes were causing traffic jams around here, Annette would be terrible to drive on but Annette's typically quiet. Harbord is a pleasure to drive on... bike lanes there too... Hallam, Davenport... the list goes on. Bike lanes encourage people to bike and in turn, there's less cars on the road.
If this anti-bike lane sentiment is honestly how people in JT feel, I'm disappointed in my neighbours.
yes and no
There are a couple people who honestly do feel this way. At the meeting they seemed to be in a minority, and other people had far more thoughtful answers. I think this was very frustrating to them. It can't be helped and as you know I am not always the most delicate with people's feelings. ;-) So, hopefully I haven't made things too much worse.
I think the best gauge of how many people support bikes in the immediate area is the existence of the bike pirates. I love them, but honestly I didn't exactly expect them to last very long. This is an extremely local business, you might travel for a good deal on a new bike but not for the DIY maintenance. Not only are they surviving but they are thriving. There are a lot of people in the immediate area who are riding bikes and care about cyclist safety.
However the religion of the automobile is strong and the people who need to believe the automobile is viable are very vocal.
Your neighbours have a right to their opinions, like you
Jeff your so called neighbours have a right to their opinions as much as you and others do, we live here too and I don't believe my neighbour is anti-bike. I would of agreeed with you both regarding Dupont street if I was new in the neighourhood, but I'm not. I seen how Dupont is now and how it was before and it's not the same. The bike lanes did change the flow of traffic, it wasn't this bad. The same goes with St. Clair after they narrowed the road..
The other thing bike lanes has not done was to discourage less cars on dupont. I TTC to work, but drive on weekends and during the day, not only do I see the traffic, i'm in it. To me Dupont is a mess and even more scary is the stories we hear from first responders, trying to get a fire truck through all that the traffic, when you have a stroke and heart attach time is everything??
I think the governemnt should take a closer look to see the effects idiling has on community like ours. The deadly emmisions(Carbon Monoxide) the cars spews out. We presently have traffic on Dupont to the N, Bloor to the S, Dundas to the W and soon Landowne to the W will have the same idiling problems as dupont. Guess who community is setting in the middle of all this, we are JT. Now you can see why some of your neighbours might be concerned. JF
Bike lanes aren't the
Bike lanes aren't the problem, cars are.
I've lived here for some time as well and traffic was bad on Dupont (namely because of the bottleneck at Dundas/Annette/Dupont).
If cars weren't using it to get out of the city to inner suburbs and the store fronts were more vibrant it would change the whole walking/ driving/cycling experience.
I own a car, have all my adult life, and yet I know it's too many cars that are causing the problem, not enough car pooling and the mentality that roads are for cars that has poisoned peoples minds.
You make Dupont two lanes again, by removing the bike lanes, the drivers will just fill in the void and it will be exactly the same holdup congestion as today except just with more cars passing through, ie
MORE POLLUTION, if pollution is your concern lobby govt for those streets mentioned around JT to be local car traffic only or better yet my hope one day we get congestion charges (electronic tariffs), as you enter the city during peak hours, greater Vancouver has approved it and pushing it on province, every other city that has done it see the benefit of less vehicular traffic.
So if pollution was the enemy the car is the agent, not bikes or bike lanes. reduce the cars, we get more streets where people walk and less pollutants we have to breath
Well put
Well put. If pollution is the issue then remember that moving cars pollute as well and surrendering every bit of space to them just increases traffic. The only thing that has been shown to reduce traffic is to reduce capacity and make public transit or other options more desirable. Bike lanes, wider sidewalks, traffic calming, and public transit fight pollution. Local economies and density also tend to keep people close to home so they dont drive to go buy one item. So if you want to fight air pollution then stop driving as much. And also accept the fact that if you live in a growing city, there will be traffic congestion just like every other city in the world and by the way our congestion is small compared to bigger cities.
I own a car and I support tolls. They work. They work in the UK and they have worked for decades south in the "land of the free". And they would work here. Cars are incredibly subsidized as it is so tolls would raise funds and help reduce wasteful trips. 2 elections ago the loudmouth DJ John Oakley said that tolls were a communist idea. Actually they are a free market idea that concentrates costs on the actual users; a perfect idea.
I also support raising taxes to get public transit happening. As Dupont develops some day we will need a real bus route there instead of the iffy service we have now.
Dupont
Dupont was better 20 years ago, but in the year before the bike lane was put in it was not particularly good for driving. The intersection with Annette and Dundas was always a bottleneck. There was two lanes but where the just east of the light where the road turns and dives down cars would always alternate effectively only going one at a time. The left lane would block with cars turning onto Osler, the right would block at Edwin and there was always some idiot trying to game the system by making 32 lane changes between Annette and Lansdowne.
People have the right to their opinions, but we need to consider all the facts as well.
I agree that car emissions are an important concern. I think when the rail path is extended downtown, it will likely draw significantly more cyclists and at that point the bike lane under the railway bridge is likely to become quite important for allowing a significant number of cyclists to get down town safely.
Warren do you think Bike
Warren do you think Bike Lanes are the new raccoons? : )
Complete Streets
Hey Jeff, remember 10 years ago, you never saw a bike around this area. Now look at it. New families and changing attitudes, cycling continues to grow around here. You cant go more than a few minutes without seeing a bike go by. Transportation planning used to mean cars but now it's "complete streets" where pedestrians, cyclists, public transit, and cars all have their place. As the cities develop car drivers eventually are forced to make a choice ---and it has nothing to do with bike lanes, its about whether you really need or can afford to drive everywhere.
I think you are correct, the issue is volume and the Dundas West/Annette/Dupont intersection doesnt help. Remember most of that traffic is headed to one location; stores at Keele and St. Clair. It was the arterial speedway of Dupont that helped kill stores and jobs and taking back Dupont for locals may help bring back our local economy to what it once was. With intensification we are seeing the new Dominion store and the Shoppers on Dundas and more so the process of moving to complete streets is under way whether some people get it or not. Local businesses are now using Railpath to bike power coffee and food deliveries. If you want to live like the 1970's then life is going to get harder year after year.
A complicated issue needs a complicated answer - Velo-City!
Everyone's right - all the issues are coming together to confound the traffic issue all the more. Anyone who says the bike lanes have not increased traffic is not being honest - and this is coming from a guy who has been a lifelong cyclist, and an advocate of cyclist rights. I also have kids, and I live on Edwin south of Dupont. I KNOW the traffic difference on Dupont, and I definitely know the difference on Edwin: people get frustrated going east on Dupont coming up the hill from the Annette / Dundas / Dupont debacle, and hit their first right off the Dupont mess and speed down Edwin. With the coming development at the bottom of Edwin in the old Glidden Paint property, this will quickly escalate into a traffic nightmare. We need Edwin south of Dupont to be One Way heading north, and likely with speed bumps. Traffic calming, because traffic is likely not going away.
I don't want to see the bike lanes gone - I support them. But we clearly have to be more creative. Some people will think about hopping on their bikes, but many simply won't - and that's fine too. All of that takes time and attitudes changing.
Anyone ever hear about or check out the Toronto based bicycle plan called Velo-City? It was developed here well over 10 years ago, I believe - but our car-centric culture quickly saw an end to that idea. Still, there has been great interest in more progressive cities. Essentiall, they are elevated bike lanes in tubes that straddle the middle of major arteries with a very small footprint. There is some greater cost, of course, but it is nowhere near the cost of continuing to support the requirements of car culture. Check it out - including the artist renderings found here: http://www.velo-city.ca/MainFrameset.html
I think a pilot project should be done with something like this, somewhere in the city - and why not with Dupont - perhaps it could start on the west end at that usless island of greenery caught in the middle of Dundas and the Dupont underpass - go over the railpath, along Dupont and over the next rail line, and out again at either Lansdowne or over to Dufferin. What say you all - does it have to be a pipe dream?
CRAIG WROTE:
CRAIG WROTE: "Anyone who says the bike lanes have not increased traffic is not being honest"
Hey Craig thanks for you input and your honesty. I agree with you. It's like anything else in life when there is any issue, some people don't acknowledge because by doing so you are then admiting their is a problem. People in this community are very divided. It was never like that when I was growing up in the JT. You see a problem and you deal with it. Lot of it has to do with the future ideas of the JT, about how they envisioned JT/ward18 would and should look like. Some division is caused by it seems to me the party you support, people also belong to little groups within the community and have an agenda.
Lastly, their are many in this community who have never posted on this site and are concern with the issues of this community and already started to take action by letter wrtting to all 3 levels of government and agencies. To me it's not important what other believe or me trying to convince people to see or believe what you believe or see, but it's important what you see and believe. JF
I agree
The "Complete Streets" concept is an important one for people to understand. I also thing the subway drew attention away from Dupont (or Royce). But the bike lane also increases the buffer making the sidewalks feel safer and more pleasant. That should be good for local small business. The Junction Triangle would benefit greatly from a more vibrant Dupont.
Street Life Wins Over Cars
Exactly. Do we want empty stores or a vibrant street life? Despite our Mayor, the inertia is for streetlife. Our hood is moving in the right direction and in the future I see complete streets with jobs, local business, and a caring tight knot community. The opposite of 4 lane freeways through any community.
Momentum
I think the word momentum was meant here - we have momentum toward creating greater streetlife in our community ;).
Too Many Cars
Dupont is not bumper to bumper 7 to 7, that is a huge exaggeration. It is tied up at rush hours, including noon just like Bloor is. In fact Dupont mirrors the other arterial roads in our area, none of which have bike lanes. I think some of the additional traffic on Dupont is spillage coming up from Bloor.
It is worth noting that before the bike lanes on Dupont there was parking on both sides of the street for most of the day so in fact nothing has really changed for most of the day. If you look at Dupont east of Dufferin where there are no bike lanes you will notice that it is usually jammed in rush hour too. The real issue is too many cars.
As St. Clair and Keele have developed there has been a steady increase on Dupont, Davenport, St. Clair, and Bloor as more and more people shop there. As well, overall, there has been a fair amount of new development along these routes especially on Dupont east of Dufferin. Basically more cars; most of which are only traveling through.With or without bike lanes there would be more cars and there reaches a point where you cannot fit any more cars and you have a traffic jam. Every traffic theory known shows that increased road capacity brings more cars until people want more capacity again. It is insatiable and eventually like all larger cities public transit becomes the only answer. The much talked about "downtown relief line" would go a long way to making it easier to keep your car at home but the reality is that if you want to drive in a modern large city during rush hour, expect delays.
The intersection at Bloor and Symington is on the radar for the traffic study, the Ward 18 Corridor Study, and the Castlepoint Development traffic study. Those lights were installed in the 1970's because a boy was run over crossing Bloor. Fortunately the Boys and Girls Club has staff to walk the kids through the intersection at least on the way there. Because of all the development that is going happen around there there will have to be some improvements to that intersection and I can see Sterling Road eventually connecting with Ruttan Street (which I think is already a City plan).
Two new TO rail crossings
I attended the meeting at Bloor Collegiate. Crossing the railway barrier was a big issue, particularly extending the West Toronto Rail Path east across the Barrie line.
This year Toronto quickly constructed 2 new level rail crossings near the Finch rail corridor for bikes & pedestrians at minimal expense. The trail first crosses the Barrie line and then the Stouffvile line, both are owned by Metrolinx.
Barrie line crossing between Dufferin & Keele.
http://www.toronto.ca/cycling/public-consultations/pdf/rinc5/2010-04-16_...
Proposed MetrolinxRail Crossing at Shell storage facility
• Existing TTC transitwaycrossing location to be utilized
• Proposed new signal system at this location
(the YU transitway will be removed when the subway extension opens but the path is permanent)
Stouffville line crossing between Kennedy & Midland (south of McNicholl Road level crossing).
http://www.toronto.ca/improvements/pdf/notice_10SC-20RD-RInC7A_3.pdf
The planner noted that CN (Metrolinx) would object to a level crossing (or a tunnel or bridge). Understandable since neither Metrolinx, CN or CP have local travel in their mandate, and consider crossings as an unwanted intrusion. Crossings will only happen if pols demand it, apply pressure and possibly even the threat or an actual appeal to the fed transport board which they would likely win. Still a tiny fraction of the time & cost of inconvenient bridges or tunnels.
The two level crossings were likely built because (a) the Ford admin wants to show progress and hopes off street trails will keep bikes away from cars and (b) the attached Canadian and Provincial funding had time limits. This pressure quickly rolled over inertia, excuses & red tape.
Unfortunately the Georgetown corridor is no longer an option because the Feds added a regulation to eliminate all level crossings before the air-rail link begins.
Now mag level crossings JT, LV
http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=157816