Please don't try to change the subject. Your email to Kevin dated Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:53 PM, regarding the naming project is truly damaging to your claims of not knowing about the project until six months ago. Moralistic stances will bite you back and you have been very evangelical about your accusations of inaccessibility and inclusiveness.
Breakfast program:
I would gladly post up information for other funding agencies but first I need more information:
What agencies and/or levels of government have you approached for funding?
Are you partnered up with a more established non-profit agency, such as STOP or FoodShare?
Where would this breakfast program be located?
Who would be using this program? i.e. children, adults or both
I wouldn't want to post up information that you already know.
We can ask Vic to start a new forum topic specific to this breakfast program, so that there is one place to gather and share information amongst the greater community.
Lets stop bashing Jack and Virginia. I live near the so-called mual. It is ugly. School children could have done better. I am upset that who ever own that property would allow you to spray paint all over it. Community is were the heart is. I have lived here for over 35 years I know of Virginia. We have worked together on projects in the past and she is a caring individual that would give the shirt of her back to help you.
From reading some of your postings that it sounds like many of you have moved into the commuity recently. Welcome. Have respect for those of us who have lived in the community longer that you and have paved to way for future generations to reap the fruits of our labour not bash it. That's my two cents worth.
If you are truly serious about helping then we except your offer. Right now we are waiting for comformation regarding funding. And without funding we can only stay afloat for just a short while. Once we get confernation we were going to hold a public meeting. We have only had the founding. members for now. If you are intersed in participating and know who else we can approach for funding then I am all ears.
Virginia, just so everyone knows that some of your claims are not fully correct, I thought it helpful to share this e-mail you sent me more than a year ago about the naming project. You have stated repeatedly you knew nothing about it, you heard about it "six months ago", you never received any information about the initiative. I will let others draw their own conclusions about what is really going on with the unending attacks on a process led by residents to create a stronger community.
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Name change
Hi Kevin,
My name is Virginia Novak a very, very long time resident and activist for 30 years. I suppose by both Jack's and your emails, that you want to change the name Junction Triangle? The name goes back longer then I have been in the community. Everyone know when you speak of the Junction Triangle were we are situated.
The Triangle stems (if you look at a map of the area) of railways to the east, west and north. That is the Junction Triangle and quite frankly anyone who dares thinks of changing it is messing with history.
I gather you and your group have been in the community a short time. And by the sounds of it want to change everything about our community. Have some respect for the community you now call home. I have won many a battle in this community and I am not about to have you or anyone else change the name because it suits them. We start doing this and before you know it the name Toronto will be changed because someone doesn't like it.
That's all I have to say on the matter for the moment.
Who threw the first stone? If my memory serves me correctly, you and Jack were the first to loudly and aggressively criticize many new projects by other residents who you both labeled "new to the community". Despite being pointed out over and over again that there was plenty of OFFLINE information being done via newspapers, radio, tv and more then 10, 000 postcards being delivered by Canada Post and placed on car windows, you both keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
I will return the favour:
For your next project, I look forward to reading all about it in the top four languages of the area. I also look forward to the two of you knocking on my door, with four translators and hand outs in the top four languages and I look forward to finding out more about your breakfast program, again all written in the top four languages.
I look forward to more meeting information about your projects, both in my mailbox and on this web site.
A year ago you started this project. Fine. I heard about a meeting you had 3 weeks later. I saw no flyer at my house nor did anyone else for that matter. You relyed on the web-site. Again I have to stress not everyone has a computer. I have neighbours who don't have one and will never have one. And not everyone knows about the web-sit. Just recently you have been showing up at front doors. When Kevin came knocking at my neighbours door he only asked if he could place a sign on there front veranda. My neighbour asked what this was for and he said it was naming the comminity. I don't know anything about nameing a community. So said no. He never left her with written information with any background as to who you were or what you were trying to athieve. You totally lost there. This women is in her 70's and is computer alliterate she and others like her would never know what is going on in the hood.
I don't care from Adam what you are going to name this community, but it is the process in which you are doing this.
People will place signs because to them that is what you do. I have often aproached these same merchants to post flyer on ther window and they graciously comply not realy knowing what is going on but feel obligated in doing so.
Let's stop this back and forth crap. I have noticed that if someone isn't on your side 100% then you lash out at them. We can all learn from each other.
Please post up information on this site when your next community meeting will be about the breakfast program and others. I'm sure many people would love to attend and HELP out. I haven't seen hand outs in my mail box about your community projects or postings on this web site as to when the meetings are.
I look forward to more meeting information about your projects, both in my mailbox and on this web site.
I would have more respect for your opinions of inclusiveness if I actually have seen any of your handouts and signs for protests and vigils written in the top four languages too; or have read either of you write in any of your moralistic comments, on this web site, while touting all your godlike community achievements, that you would HELP Fuzzy Boundaries out by providing names of translators for their project.
So far, all I've read is the two of you sitting on your sanctimonious throne criticizing without offering any assistance to your talk of language inclusiveness.
Next time I see a sign pasted up on a light pole promoting a vigil or protest: please have your handouts in the top four languages too. And don't respond with "I don't know what you're talking about..." then repeat, yet again, and again the following:
we do great work in the community
we've lived in this wonderful community for a long time
Fuzzy Boundaries have not been inclusive
we're the only ones who care about immigrants and their language issues
blah, blah, blah
For your next project, I look forward to reading all about it in the top four languages of the area. I also look forward to the two of you knocking on my door, with four translators and hand outs in the top four languages and I look forward to finding out more about your breakfast program, again all written in the top four languages.
If memory serves me correctly you have moved into this community only 8 years ago. I have lived here all my life. I have been involed in this community more then you know. The results of my work and others are all around you and beyond. So don't say I only complain. I know one of the neighbours who lives across the street on Wallace were your mural is and she has complained to the city about it. There are others who suffer in silence rather than complain, but I know who they are.
How would you now if I don't go to meetings. I do when time allows me to. I have two jobs so I can't always be there.......not to say I wouldn't like to. I am always keep up to speed on what is going on. The unfortunate part of this group you rely on the web-page to pass on information. Not everyone has a computer. Residence hear about it after the fact. In the past flyers have always been a good way of letting people now of pending meetings.
As for the volunteers that came around it is about one year to late. Had you done this properly one year ago, you may have had a better turn out then you had. 200 dosen't represent the 8000 who live here. Up to now no one knew who you were or what you were doing. I got a lot of calls yesterday asking me who these people were. This canvassing should have been done right after your first meeting along with written information in the most popular languages spoken here. That my friend is how we always got the community behind us. You have a lot to learn and I am willing to pass on my knowledge.
If you are so into doing good in the community then perhaps help Jack and I get the funding we need to give hungry children in the community a half decent breakfast or provide warm clothing for the needy. I have done the community festivals, during the 80's and the 90's. I and others have put more sweat and tears then you will ever know. The enviroment was our biggest challange. The group that I was apart of then worked hard to clean this area up and today you are breathing clean air. 30 years ago you couldn't go outside and not get sick from the fumes. So the next time you say I don't put hard work and sweat into the community think again.
When I went to Nonna's, i notice on the voting sheet you had the name" The Wedge" that name was chosen by Jane, a guest speaker at one of your FB meeting, that name should not be an option , so please, before you speak out, get your facts strait.
Variations of "The Wedge" name had already been submitted and discussed by residents well before that meeting. Many people seem to like that name, so it's no surprise that it made it into the top 10 list, as voted upon by residents of this area. It's still one of the most frequently-discussed names.
Also, Jane used to live here, and still lives very nearby. It's not like she's a total outsider.
Scott D:Wrote
People don't come here NOT to succeed and to NOT communicate; that doesn't make any sense.
Scott, I'm responding to your posting since you mentioned my name to Virginia's posting. This has nothing to do with residents not wanting to succeed or communicate. And yes, some residents still cannot communicate, yes maybe they undertstand bits here and there, but not fully capable to communicate. You don't understand because you speak english. Some residents don't have the chance or opportunity to go and learn english because of circumstances at home. To me it was baout the process, treating all residents fairly and been inclusive for all. I will use my family for example. Like many others in our hood, who came to this country from Europe and around the world many years ago and still some now are not able to understand properly. My parents worked hard they worked with Italians and came home and spoke Italian, this is common among immigrants. So they really didn't have a chance to learn english properly. I only speak Italian to my mom and some of her neighbours. I believe FB should at least had the handouts (postcards) made in the top 4 languages or if anything else in english and portuguese, out of respect for the 2nd top language spoken in the hood, next to english, 36% of ward18 speaks portuguese. http://hratch.ca/docs/Translating%20a%20campaign%20into%20votes.pdf
Just like Adam G. newsletter and his City office voice message is in English and Portuguese. You also mentioned what I'm doing for our Immigrants and our non-speaking english residents, I have been for years been up our 3 elected officals butt, asking them to help our residents about our high, high school drop out rate in ward 18 and the illiterate issue in our neighbourhood, which nothing has been done. Also when ever I'm doing an events I try to enclude them. So please don't give me that scrap. Listen, taking about treating residents like idiots, making us feel not capable. If it wasn't for many of us complaining we would of have a panel of experts chose our community name for us, so please, talk about the facts. I don't care about what name is chosen, if that is what the residents want, but make sure that all are given an equal voice. The other fact. When I went to Nonna's, i notice on the voting sheet you had the name" The Wedge" that name was chosen by Jane, a guest speaker at one of your FB meeting, that name should not be an option , so please, before you speak out, get your facts strait.
Yes, Virginia you have neighbours who speak very little English or none at all -- they exist but they exist as only 10% of the Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction population, as per 2006 census (available on the City of Toronto web site and at the library). 10% is NOT the majority. 11.7% in ALL of Ward 18 have claimed to have no knowledge of English -- that too is NOT the majority of residents.
Generalizations don't necessarily translate into facts.
Sorry Virginia but if nobody promoted FB why are there signs on houses on every street in the community? The overwhelming list of press, 4 mailings, and public meetings discredits your opinion.
I am tired of non-English speakers and immigrants in our area being talked about as if they are helpless children who need the protection of wiser other people to help them. Immigrants are among the most motivated and hard working people you can find and eager to succeed.They don't sit around doing nothing, they work hard and usually make sure that as many people in the family can speak English as fast as possible. People don't come here NOT to succeed and to NOT communicate; that doesn't make any sense.
I would also add that if people cannot read or write in English, most can speak it which is generally how things work and for those who don't speak the local language rely on their own network of family, friends, church and ethnic community for news and help. Anybody who has worked with immigrant groups would know that. So how about stopping the condescending attitude to new community members, it takes courage and strength to move to a new country.
I would like to know what literacy programs, ESL programs, or settlement programs Jack and Virginia are directly involved in that gives them the right to speak on behalf of others?
This is just exploitation pure and simple. I would rather hear from immigrants and non-English speakers first hand and I do, often at the Library where many use the computers and sign out books to help them learn English and where they voted in the FB first round. Or at the Chinese-Canadian and the Vietnamese-Canadian stores in the center of our community which BOTH posted Fuzzy Boundary signs. I think they are onto something and they are speaking for themselves in case you did not notice.
Those residents didn't mind it when it was a run down building though. Did they complain about that, or the illegal garbage that was dumped there? Probably not. There only seems to be (as usual) 2 people complaining.Why become rage filled over something that will be gone in a few weeks?
You don't know anything about me Virginia because you don't go to meetings in the area, you don't volunteer your time for things, we never see you. You just sit at home and complain about the people how are giving their time and money and sweat to the community. You have this attitude that ONLY you represent the community.That would be news to the 40 people out canvassing for FB today, or the volunteers at the Boys and Girls Club, or the parents who run the Perth Park Festival, the people who run this website (From day 1), the Friends of Railpath, the Clean Train Coalition, The Davenport Diamond Group to name a few. You are sadly becoming a lone complainer in a community of doers.
Don't insult my inttelligence, I have been doing good work in this community before you were a fly on the wall. Did anyone ask the neighbours who live directly in front or beside this mural how they would feel about this? NO. I know of someone who lives across the street and they are disgusted with it this houshold phoned the city regarding it's removal. Unfortunately for them the bi-law regarding murals like that one is in the process of being passed. Had it been passed already that would have come done. So you see my good friend I am not the only one who hates it.
What door knocking? Kevin knocked at my door just before the first vote and only to ask if I wanted a sign put on my front porch. Before that no one came knocking or left any information for me to read. Vic, this process should have been teated like an election, which this is....sort of. From the very begining your group should have been out there talking to people and having some one who speachs Portugese and Italian tag along if someone needed interpretation. You may have had more support if that was done. That is the way I have always gotten support in the community.
You just don't get it. Let's take my neighbours for instance. Yes they speak English or broken English but do not have a computer. Many don't quite understand what the fuss is all about. And that is talking to people in the community. A very small percentage of residence know what is going on and of those they don't care. The whole process should have been door knocking with information leaflets given out to each household in the 4 most popular languages spoken here. This was a half-ass job by individuals who clearly didn't know how the process is done. I got to know about this 6 months ago. Others didn't know the South Junction Triangle web-site existed so tell me how are they supose to respond to this?
Responding to "Vic you left out 60% of the community":
From the City of Toronto web site, as of 2006 the Ward 18 profile is thus:
Language: Out of 45, 585 respondents to the census only 5, 345 people (11.7%) claimed that they have no knowledge of English/French.
Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction:
In 2001, 11.5% claimed that they have no knowledge of English/French. By 2006, 10% claimed they have no knowledge of English/French. More residents had a knowledge of English by 2006.
Private Households Income Distribution in the Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction area:
In 2006, 57.2% claimed a household income over $40, 000. per year. 42.8% claimed a household income under $40, 000. per year. 14.3% claimed a household income over 100K. 7.6% claimed a household income under 10K.
Given these income stats, I would think the majority of residents have some sort of ACCESS TO A COMPUTER.
Education: Out of 39,300 respondents to the census, 26, 255 people (66.8%) have a certificate, diploma or degree, which means a lot of people have the ability to read the English language.
These are the stats that refute your unsubstantiated claim that "60% of the community" was left out of the Fuzzy Boundaries initiative. Moreover, as Vic says, even if a person claims to not speak English, they will KNOW somebody who does.
30 years ago, either the City or a group of residents chose the name, without a vote among the public (correct me if I'm wrong...I'm still waiting to hear how that name was originally chosen). Fuzzy Boundaries is giving everyone the chance to choose.
You don't need a computer to vote or participate. Most of the outreach was done OFFLINE: Direct mailings, door-knocking, newspaper articles, public meetings, public events, etc... First round of voting was available IN PERSON at the library. Second round also adds two other locations in the neighbourhood (Yasi's and Nonna's). No computer required for any of this.
The Fuzzy Boundaries group is NOT picking the name themselves. It is reaching out to everyone in the community to make the decision. Everyone has the opportunity to vote, or not to vote.
The website is available in the most common language in the neighbourhood, understood by the vast majority. The next most used language, Portuguese, is also available. The vast majority of households have at least one person who can speak english and help translate the notices.
Lastly, nobody is forcing the name on anybody else. If you don't like the name that is chosen, you don't have to use it. You can keep calling it by the official name (Dovercourt-Wallace-Emerson-Junction) if you really want to.
VIC WROTE:
"It was either the City or a local anti-pollution group who came up with the name. Not the general population"
Vic, I couldn't help myself to respond to you posting, really I was trying to avoid this site. Tell me what is the difference between what happened 30 years ago and what is happening now. We have as Adam claims, an informal group(fuzzy boundaries) or a smaller group of residents living within a larger group of residents , picking or choosening a name for the rest of the general population, as you wrote. 200,300 or even 400 residents, does not speak for the whole community. Vic you left out 60% of the community. Thank goodness you speak English and own a computer, next time you go abroad where English is not the main language spoken. See how you would feel not understanding what one is saying, or not been able to respond or read the newspaper. For example: I will use my mom, my mom who lives on Symington avenue, if I didn't tell her what was going about the renaming of the community??? She would not know. It wasn't fuzzy boundaries. She is a residents just like the rest of you/us. So please don't say the community picked the name, some residents or a very small group, who happens to live within a larger group of residents. JF
Not sure what tax dollars have to do with it since none were spent and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Its not defacing because the owners agreed to it.
The property was run down and falling apart so what difference does it make for 3 weeks anyway? Its promoting a community activity and looks like children did it for a school project. Who could be against that ?
"Grow up and take responsibility". You mean gather a group of citizens and form a group, hold numerous meetings, do a massive pr blitzes, get huge amounts of positive press for the area plus the endorsement of every City and local group---if that's not taking responsibility for things I don't know what is.
Again we see the proverbial "WE", always used to make ones position seem more reasonable and powerful and enshrined in moral superiority but usually the domain of those who are few in number.
There are lots of cool things happening in the area championed by lots of residents (like the hundreds that came out to meetings) and as usual the same one or two people complain but offer nothing better. Has it ever occurred to you that hard work and donated time and money provide you with a forum to sit at home and complain at ease without ever asking that you do anything in return ? Maybe it has not dawned on you but complaining about everything and being against everything is a broken record that pretty much nobody listens to anymore.
For the few weeks that it exists I think the painting is cool. I'll live.
The Junction Triangle named emerged in the late seventies. Let's see your evidence that the area was called Junction Triangle before you were born. The last time I saw you Virginia, you sure didn't look like you were 30-something.
The history of the name has been documented here on the site. Don't fall prey to the device some people in the area like to use by making unsubstantiated claims with no evidence to support their misinformation. Produce some evidence.
Please don't try to change the subject. Your email to Kevin dated Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:53 PM, regarding the naming project is truly damaging to your claims of not knowing about the project until six months ago. Moralistic stances will bite you back and you have been very evangelical about your accusations of inaccessibility and inclusiveness.
Breakfast program:
I would gladly post up information for other funding agencies but first I need more information:
What agencies and/or levels of government have you approached for funding?
Are you partnered up with a more established non-profit agency, such as STOP or FoodShare?
Where would this breakfast program be located?
Who would be using this program? i.e. children, adults or both
I wouldn't want to post up information that you already know.
We can ask Vic to start a new forum topic specific to this breakfast program, so that there is one place to gather and share information amongst the greater community.
Lets stop bashing Jack and Virginia. I live near the so-called mual. It is ugly. School children could have done better. I am upset that who ever own that property would allow you to spray paint all over it. Community is were the heart is. I have lived here for over 35 years I know of Virginia. We have worked together on projects in the past and she is a caring individual that would give the shirt of her back to help you.
From reading some of your postings that it sounds like many of you have moved into the commuity recently. Welcome. Have respect for those of us who have lived in the community longer that you and have paved to way for future generations to reap the fruits of our labour not bash it. That's my two cents worth.
If you are truly serious about helping then we except your offer. Right now we are waiting for comformation regarding funding. And without funding we can only stay afloat for just a short while. Once we get confernation we were going to hold a public meeting. We have only had the founding. members for now. If you are intersed in participating and know who else we can approach for funding then I am all ears.
Virginia, just so everyone knows that some of your claims are not fully correct, I thought it helpful to share this e-mail you sent me more than a year ago about the naming project. You have stated repeatedly you knew nothing about it, you heard about it "six months ago", you never received any information about the initiative. I will let others draw their own conclusions about what is really going on with the unending attacks on a process led by residents to create a stronger community.
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Name change
Hi Kevin,
My name is Virginia Novak a very, very long time resident and activist for 30 years. I suppose by both Jack's and your emails, that you want to change the name Junction Triangle? The name goes back longer then I have been in the community. Everyone know when you speak of the Junction Triangle were we are situated.
The Triangle stems (if you look at a map of the area) of railways to the east, west and north. That is the Junction Triangle and quite frankly anyone who dares thinks of changing it is messing with history.
I gather you and your group have been in the community a short time. And by the sounds of it want to change everything about our community. Have some respect for the community you now call home. I have won many a battle in this community and I am not about to have you or anyone else change the name because it suits them. We start doing this and before you know it the name Toronto will be changed because someone doesn't like it.
That's all I have to say on the matter for the moment.
Virginia
Who threw the first stone? If my memory serves me correctly, you and Jack were the first to loudly and aggressively criticize many new projects by other residents who you both labeled "new to the community". Despite being pointed out over and over again that there was plenty of OFFLINE information being done via newspapers, radio, tv and more then 10, 000 postcards being delivered by Canada Post and placed on car windows, you both keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
I will return the favour:
For your next project, I look forward to reading all about it in the top four languages of the area. I also look forward to the two of you knocking on my door, with four translators and hand outs in the top four languages and I look forward to finding out more about your breakfast program, again all written in the top four languages.
I look forward to more meeting information about your projects, both in my mailbox and on this web site.
A year ago you started this project. Fine. I heard about a meeting you had 3 weeks later. I saw no flyer at my house nor did anyone else for that matter. You relyed on the web-site. Again I have to stress not everyone has a computer. I have neighbours who don't have one and will never have one. And not everyone knows about the web-sit. Just recently you have been showing up at front doors. When Kevin came knocking at my neighbours door he only asked if he could place a sign on there front veranda. My neighbour asked what this was for and he said it was naming the comminity. I don't know anything about nameing a community. So said no. He never left her with written information with any background as to who you were or what you were trying to athieve. You totally lost there. This women is in her 70's and is computer alliterate she and others like her would never know what is going on in the hood.
I don't care from Adam what you are going to name this community, but it is the process in which you are doing this.
People will place signs because to them that is what you do. I have often aproached these same merchants to post flyer on ther window and they graciously comply not realy knowing what is going on but feel obligated in doing so.
Let's stop this back and forth crap. I have noticed that if someone isn't on your side 100% then you lash out at them. We can all learn from each other.
Please post up information on this site when your next community meeting will be about the breakfast program and others. I'm sure many people would love to attend and HELP out. I haven't seen hand outs in my mail box about your community projects or postings on this web site as to when the meetings are.
I look forward to more meeting information about your projects, both in my mailbox and on this web site.
Jack and Virginia,
I would have more respect for your opinions of inclusiveness if I actually have seen any of your handouts and signs for protests and vigils written in the top four languages too; or have read either of you write in any of your moralistic comments, on this web site, while touting all your godlike community achievements, that you would HELP Fuzzy Boundaries out by providing names of translators for their project.
So far, all I've read is the two of you sitting on your sanctimonious throne criticizing without offering any assistance to your talk of language inclusiveness.
Next time I see a sign pasted up on a light pole promoting a vigil or protest: please have your handouts in the top four languages too. And don't respond with "I don't know what you're talking about..." then repeat, yet again, and again the following:
blah, blah, blah
For your next project, I look forward to reading all about it in the top four languages of the area. I also look forward to the two of you knocking on my door, with four translators and hand outs in the top four languages and I look forward to finding out more about your breakfast program, again all written in the top four languages.
If memory serves me correctly you have moved into this community only 8 years ago. I have lived here all my life. I have been involed in this community more then you know. The results of my work and others are all around you and beyond. So don't say I only complain. I know one of the neighbours who lives across the street on Wallace were your mural is and she has complained to the city about it. There are others who suffer in silence rather than complain, but I know who they are.
How would you now if I don't go to meetings. I do when time allows me to. I have two jobs so I can't always be there.......not to say I wouldn't like to. I am always keep up to speed on what is going on. The unfortunate part of this group you rely on the web-page to pass on information. Not everyone has a computer. Residence hear about it after the fact. In the past flyers have always been a good way of letting people now of pending meetings.
As for the volunteers that came around it is about one year to late. Had you done this properly one year ago, you may have had a better turn out then you had. 200 dosen't represent the 8000 who live here. Up to now no one knew who you were or what you were doing. I got a lot of calls yesterday asking me who these people were. This canvassing should have been done right after your first meeting along with written information in the most popular languages spoken here. That my friend is how we always got the community behind us. You have a lot to learn and I am willing to pass on my knowledge.
If you are so into doing good in the community then perhaps help Jack and I get the funding we need to give hungry children in the community a half decent breakfast or provide warm clothing for the needy. I have done the community festivals, during the 80's and the 90's. I and others have put more sweat and tears then you will ever know. The enviroment was our biggest challange. The group that I was apart of then worked hard to clean this area up and today you are breathing clean air. 30 years ago you couldn't go outside and not get sick from the fumes. So the next time you say I don't put hard work and sweat into the community think again.
Variations of "The Wedge" name had already been submitted and discussed by residents well before that meeting. Many people seem to like that name, so it's no surprise that it made it into the top 10 list, as voted upon by residents of this area. It's still one of the most frequently-discussed names.
Also, Jane used to live here, and still lives very nearby. It's not like she's a total outsider.
Scott D:Wrote
People don't come here NOT to succeed and to NOT communicate; that doesn't make any sense.
Scott, I'm responding to your posting since you mentioned my name to Virginia's posting. This has nothing to do with residents not wanting to succeed or communicate. And yes, some residents still cannot communicate, yes maybe they undertstand bits here and there, but not fully capable to communicate. You don't understand because you speak english. Some residents don't have the chance or opportunity to go and learn english because of circumstances at home. To me it was baout the process, treating all residents fairly and been inclusive for all. I will use my family for example. Like many others in our hood, who came to this country from Europe and around the world many years ago and still some now are not able to understand properly. My parents worked hard they worked with Italians and came home and spoke Italian, this is common among immigrants. So they really didn't have a chance to learn english properly. I only speak Italian to my mom and some of her neighbours. I believe FB should at least had the handouts (postcards) made in the top 4 languages or if anything else in english and portuguese, out of respect for the 2nd top language spoken in the hood, next to english, 36% of ward18 speaks portuguese.
http://hratch.ca/docs/Translating%20a%20campaign%20into%20votes.pdf
Just like Adam G. newsletter and his City office voice message is in English and Portuguese. You also mentioned what I'm doing for our Immigrants and our non-speaking english residents, I have been for years been up our 3 elected officals butt, asking them to help our residents about our high, high school drop out rate in ward 18 and the illiterate issue in our neighbourhood, which nothing has been done. Also when ever I'm doing an events I try to enclude them. So please don't give me that scrap. Listen, taking about treating residents like idiots, making us feel not capable. If it wasn't for many of us complaining we would of have a panel of experts chose our community name for us, so please, talk about the facts. I don't care about what name is chosen, if that is what the residents want, but make sure that all are given an equal voice. The other fact. When I went to Nonna's, i notice on the voting sheet you had the name" The Wedge" that name was chosen by Jane, a guest speaker at one of your FB meeting, that name should not be an option , so please, before you speak out, get your facts strait.
Yes, Virginia you have neighbours who speak very little English or none at all -- they exist but they exist as only 10% of the Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction population, as per 2006 census (available on the City of Toronto web site and at the library). 10% is NOT the majority. 11.7% in ALL of Ward 18 have claimed to have no knowledge of English -- that too is NOT the majority of residents.
Generalizations don't necessarily translate into facts.
Sorry Virginia but if nobody promoted FB why are there signs on houses on every street in the community? The overwhelming list of press, 4 mailings, and public meetings discredits your opinion.
Go to the link below, read, get back to us.
http://www.fuzzyboundaries.ca/InTheNews
I don't mean to be rude but your comments are not borne out by reality again.
Be FOR something Virginia.
I am tired of non-English speakers and immigrants in our area being talked about as if they are helpless children who need the protection of wiser other people to help them. Immigrants are among the most motivated and hard working people you can find and eager to succeed.They don't sit around doing nothing, they work hard and usually make sure that as many people in the family can speak English as fast as possible. People don't come here NOT to succeed and to NOT communicate; that doesn't make any sense.
I would also add that if people cannot read or write in English, most can speak it which is generally how things work and for those who don't speak the local language rely on their own network of family, friends, church and ethnic community for news and help. Anybody who has worked with immigrant groups would know that. So how about stopping the condescending attitude to new community members, it takes courage and strength to move to a new country.
I would like to know what literacy programs, ESL programs, or settlement programs Jack and Virginia are directly involved in that gives them the right to speak on behalf of others?
This is just exploitation pure and simple. I would rather hear from immigrants and non-English speakers first hand and I do, often at the Library where many use the computers and sign out books to help them learn English and where they voted in the FB first round. Or at the Chinese-Canadian and the Vietnamese-Canadian stores in the center of our community which BOTH posted Fuzzy Boundary signs. I think they are onto something and they are speaking for themselves in case you did not notice.
Those residents didn't mind it when it was a run down building though. Did they complain about that, or the illegal garbage that was dumped there? Probably not. There only seems to be (as usual) 2 people complaining.Why become rage filled over something that will be gone in a few weeks?
You don't know anything about me Virginia because you don't go to meetings in the area, you don't volunteer your time for things, we never see you. You just sit at home and complain about the people how are giving their time and money and sweat to the community. You have this attitude that ONLY you represent the community.That would be news to the 40 people out canvassing for FB today, or the volunteers at the Boys and Girls Club, or the parents who run the Perth Park Festival, the people who run this website (From day 1), the Friends of Railpath, the Clean Train Coalition, The Davenport Diamond Group to name a few. You are sadly becoming a lone complainer in a community of doers.
Be FOR something Virginia.
Don't insult my inttelligence, I have been doing good work in this community before you were a fly on the wall. Did anyone ask the neighbours who live directly in front or beside this mural how they would feel about this? NO. I know of someone who lives across the street and they are disgusted with it this houshold phoned the city regarding it's removal. Unfortunately for them the bi-law regarding murals like that one is in the process of being passed. Had it been passed already that would have come done. So you see my good friend I am not the only one who hates it.
What door knocking? Kevin knocked at my door just before the first vote and only to ask if I wanted a sign put on my front porch. Before that no one came knocking or left any information for me to read. Vic, this process should have been teated like an election, which this is....sort of. From the very begining your group should have been out there talking to people and having some one who speachs Portugese and Italian tag along if someone needed interpretation. You may have had more support if that was done. That is the way I have always gotten support in the community.
You just don't get it. Let's take my neighbours for instance. Yes they speak English or broken English but do not have a computer. Many don't quite understand what the fuss is all about. And that is talking to people in the community. A very small percentage of residence know what is going on and of those they don't care. The whole process should have been door knocking with information leaflets given out to each household in the 4 most popular languages spoken here. This was a half-ass job by individuals who clearly didn't know how the process is done. I got to know about this 6 months ago. Others didn't know the South Junction Triangle web-site existed so tell me how are they supose to respond to this?
Think it comes under the section called right of ownership.
since when was it legal to have people post graffite on buildings all i can say is the law should be the same for all
Responding to "Vic you left out 60% of the community":
From the City of Toronto web site, as of 2006 the Ward 18 profile is thus:
Language: Out of 45, 585 respondents to the census only 5, 345 people (11.7%) claimed that they have no knowledge of English/French.
Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction:
In 2001, 11.5% claimed that they have no knowledge of English/French. By 2006, 10% claimed they have no knowledge of English/French. More residents had a knowledge of English by 2006.
Private Households Income Distribution in the Dovercourt-Wallace Emerson-Junction area:
In 2006, 57.2% claimed a household income over $40, 000. per year. 42.8% claimed a household income under $40, 000. per year. 14.3% claimed a household income over 100K. 7.6% claimed a household income under 10K.
Given these income stats, I would think the majority of residents have some sort of ACCESS TO A COMPUTER.
Education: Out of 39,300 respondents to the census, 26, 255 people (66.8%) have a certificate, diploma or degree, which means a lot of people have the ability to read the English language.
These are the stats that refute your unsubstantiated claim that "60% of the community" was left out of the Fuzzy Boundaries initiative. Moreover, as Vic says, even if a person claims to not speak English, they will KNOW somebody who does.
A few points:
VIC WROTE:
"It was either the City or a local anti-pollution group who came up with the name. Not the general population"
Vic, I couldn't help myself to respond to you posting, really I was trying to avoid this site. Tell me what is the difference between what happened 30 years ago and what is happening now. We have as Adam claims, an informal group(fuzzy boundaries) or a smaller group of residents living within a larger group of residents , picking or choosening a name for the rest of the general population, as you wrote. 200,300 or even 400 residents, does not speak for the whole community. Vic you left out 60% of the community. Thank goodness you speak English and own a computer, next time you go abroad where English is not the main language spoken. See how you would feel not understanding what one is saying, or not been able to respond or read the newspaper. For example: I will use my mom, my mom who lives on Symington avenue, if I didn't tell her what was going about the renaming of the community??? She would not know. It wasn't fuzzy boundaries. She is a residents just like the rest of you/us. So please don't say the community picked the name, some residents or a very small group, who happens to live within a larger group of residents. JF
Your comments make no sense.
Not sure what tax dollars have to do with it since none were spent and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Its not defacing because the owners agreed to it.
The property was run down and falling apart so what difference does it make for 3 weeks anyway? Its promoting a community activity and looks like children did it for a school project. Who could be against that ?
"Grow up and take responsibility". You mean gather a group of citizens and form a group, hold numerous meetings, do a massive pr blitzes, get huge amounts of positive press for the area plus the endorsement of every City and local group---if that's not taking responsibility for things I don't know what is.
Again we see the proverbial "WE", always used to make ones position seem more reasonable and powerful and enshrined in moral superiority but usually the domain of those who are few in number.
There are lots of cool things happening in the area championed by lots of residents (like the hundreds that came out to meetings) and as usual the same one or two people complain but offer nothing better. Has it ever occurred to you that hard work and donated time and money provide you with a forum to sit at home and complain at ease without ever asking that you do anything in return ? Maybe it has not dawned on you but complaining about everything and being against everything is a broken record that pretty much nobody listens to anymore.
For the few weeks that it exists I think the painting is cool. I'll live.
Be FOR something Virginia.
The Junction Triangle named emerged in the late seventies. Let's see your evidence that the area was called Junction Triangle before you were born. The last time I saw you Virginia, you sure didn't look like you were 30-something.
The history of the name has been documented here on the site. Don't fall prey to the device some people in the area like to use by making unsubstantiated claims with no evidence to support their misinformation. Produce some evidence.