ACE> It was a nightmare last night, I had to drive out to Laird Drive at the last minute for a meeting and it was so bad I thought about turning around. It took 18 minutes to go 6 blocks. I will see you at Boo's one time soon i hope. BTW way I will be shucking oysters there in July so drop by.
hi Scott, no, this was a few days ago when the first set of lines was put down. I was at BOO's tonight and the traffic in both directions was quite slow.... it has made it easier to cross dupont to get to boo'S though. lol!
The City of Toronto has a campaign underway at the moment to educate people that it is acutally against the law to cycle on the sidewalk. Only young children with tire sizes under 24 inches/61 cm are permitted to ride their bikes on the sidewalk. You can check out all the details and the fines at http://www.toronto.ca/cycling/sidewalk.htm
Just a couple of notes:
* As for increased congestion and idling. Look at Lansdowne after it was narrowed and bike lanes added, it was jammed packed for months if not for a year. Its not that bad now, however rush hour can be daunting - but hey tell me another spot in the city thats not busy during this time. People will alter their routes over time and it should help aleviate the traffic congestion over time.
* RE: Underpass on Bloor and cyclist: Someone last year kindly removed the "Cyclists Dismount" sign on the south side walk going east. So riders traveling east do not get any notice or warning to dismount. As for cyclists not wanting to go on Bloor - I understand, its dangerous - as in too narrow for both vehicles and cyclists to travel at the same time. However I would like to add experience in there as well: more experience riders will take the road where as less experienced riders will take the sidewalk, in some cases all the way to Lansdowne until they are forced to use the road, as pedestrian traffic increases.
To sum it up for most of you:
Cars vs Bikes vs Pedestrian - welcome to Toronto!
The narrowing is also about slowing traffic down as that section had become a dangerous loud speedway that also contributed to pollution because some could not resist the temptation to drag race along there. My friend owns the bar at Campbell and I have sat on that patio many times and thought "what a noisy dangerous speedway". IN fact this speed reduction brings this section more in line with the traffic patterns and speed on the rest of Dupont possibly helping the Symington to Lansdowne section come to life with actual people and stores again like it used to be.
It isn't about either or. EITHER the cyclists get off sidewalks and drive a car therefore adding more pollutants OR pedestrians just have to be really, really understanding of cyclists.
It's about riding one's bike on a sidewalk at such a fast speed, while seeing pedestrians way ahead of oneself and rather than dismounting from said bike and walking pass – oh, I dunno – an old lady with her walker, a toddler ambling along on shaky legs and someone else carrying grocery bags – said cyclist is ringing their bike bell madly so those people can jump out of their way. AND those are the courteous ones. Others don't even bother to ring a warning bell, but just zoom by nearly knocking people down with their speed.
It's about slowing down when there is people ahead and perhaps dismounting and walking pass them. It's about HOW SOME cyclists use the sidewalk at such as fast speed when riding their bikes. Cyclists are more than welcome to the sidewalks, I just wish some would be courteous enough to slow down when passing pedestrians.
Oddly the puzzle of auto congestion is impossible to solve with auto lanes. When you build a large number of tall towers downtown, you increase the population density substantially. By definition there can not be the land available for new roads. Now, if a society has to export it's garbage to a foreign country, you shouldn't be surprised if they are incapable of building out any public transit. Fifty years ago we were capable of building a subway system, but we are too stupid now. So that leaves you with options you may not have previously expected. Ever seen pictures of Hong Kong? In a city, bicycles can travel generally as quickly and much more densely than cars. At this point we need to use more bicycles.
Of course we could pave over our farmland and import more food... Then when that goes bad nobody would miss us.
The most idiotic implementation of a bike lane i have ever seen. Squeezing stop and go traffic down to one lane has created a congested nightmare of smog. I'll take another bike route, thank you.
A group of us are contemplating heading there one night with black concrete paint and "fixing" this stupidity
When discussing the relative merits of something like a bicycle path, the relevant issue is the behavior of a group of people. You can tsk me all you want but it may be more productive to understand people's motivation. I live at the corner of Perth and Bloor. I am amazed at the number of westbound bikes who ride up to the sidewalk even on a clean bright day will low traffic level. Your moral objection will not change that. They do not feel they have safe passage along the road even if it looks pretty safe to me. For many of these people the next best option will be to pollute.
I've seen many bikes do things I would not do. But most of the time I think it would be more constructive for people to be more understanding of cyclists.
I am amazed at how patient drivers are with other drivers, but they scream at cyclists who cause them minor inconvenience. Friday I was walking on Bloor and some woman beeped and screamed at a bike who was crossing with the pedestrian signal. Now she was turning left and there was a stopped car 15 feet down the road, so the bike didn't delay her in any significant way. But whoever was right or wrong, the beeping could sound an awful lot like a death threat. (Next time I just might kill you if you get between me and starbucks.)
I don't want to overreact to your comment. Just as I don't shoo pedestrians out of the way, I'm sure you don't make a habit of screaming at some toothless old guy with a milk crate on the back of his bike rattling along slightly faster than a walking pace.
But there is a lot of hyperbole about the menace of bike riders. And lots of people are willing to scream at them. I remember about a year ago a couple of kids rode their bike under the bridge and some big guy with his kid started screaming at them that they were criminals. He went on at terrific volume to demonstrate his rather unfortunate level of education. I felt bad for his kid. I sort of wished I wasn't in such a big hurry at the time, but a futile philosophical conversation would likely not have been very rewarding.
At the moment riding a bike downtown requires a significant level of mental toughness. If you nearly get killed by a dump truck, and wobble up onto the sidewalk to get home you can't be entirely sure some wacko won't unleash a verbal tirade on you while his child watches presumably until you melt and dribble into the nearest drain.
(I don't tend to melt, the last time a taxi actually hit me I gave him a pretty good tirade myself thank you very much. But you might be surprised at how unnerving a near death experience can be.)
If a person is to start using these new bike paths they have to survive their first two months when they will be uncertain, they will make mistakes, and they will likely retreat to the sidewalks on occasion. They need to survive their first two years when they will have an occasional harrowing experience that will make them seriously reconsider this decision. Their friends will helpfully supply a plethora of anecdotes that prove that every misfortune to befall a cyclists is their own fault.
But legend has it that somewhere in the city there is an ax wielding maniac that adjudicates SUV / cyclist disharmonies consistently in favour of the cyclist to the minor damage of the SUV. He travels with a small collection of side mirrors rattling around in a milk crate on the back of a twenty year old rusting squeaking bicycle. Nobody knows where he lives.
You are asking a lot! I suppose you will soon be expecting cyclists to stop at stop signs, signal their turns and stop blocking intersections so vehicles can make right turns on red lights.
I completely understand that some cyclists are fearful to ride that stretch of the underpass because of the traffic BUT as ADULT cyclists, I wish they would WALK with their BIKES on the sidewalk rather than ride on the sidewalk as though it were the road -- then ring their bells to tell pedestrians, and some with small children walking or in strollers to get out of THEIR way. *tsk*
Going under the railway tracks cars often pinch the side in the corner. Things like that discourage people from riding at all. There is a bit of a chicken and egg issue where bike lanes don't seem worthwhile unless there are lots of bikes, but people won't ride bikes if they feel they are risking their lives.
You have to start somewhere. When you do, the first week the traffic will be the worst since people have not started to adjust their routes. I would think traffic would normalize in a week or so but it may take longer before you start seeing significant number of bikes.
Many of the existing bike lanes don't connect very far, I've used Harbord quite a bit but what do you do when it stops. I am guessing the city used Dupont so they could get a fairly long continuous connection without giving up lanes on a more major street like Bloor.
I was on the bike lanes today and the traffic was horrible. Many cars idling. I can't see how limiting vehicles on dupont is somehow a good result. I don't really see how this will result in our area becoming a destination either (?) I'm all for bike lanes, but with cars inching down dupont, an increase of smog is all i can see as a result.
It seems silly that people would refer to dirty diesel and clean coal.
If you want the air to be cleaner, you need to convince people to drive less. Full stop.
The thing I respect about Boone Pickens is that he talks about the energy generation and doesn't avoid inconvenient reality. 'Clean electric' is a deceitful phrase.
It amazes me how often people park cars on the sidewalk on Perth directly across from an open parking spot.
I don't know how much education people need. Usually a bike on the sidewalk is avoiding a specific danger. Turning left from Bloor to Perth looks like a death wish to me. The underpasses seem to intimidate many cyclists. I often see bikes moving away from the road just before the underpass. I also see many cars stopping only a couple of inches from the side of the underpass leaving no room for a bike. The new lanes will be very helpful.
One problem is when bike are riding fast. But they are almost always kids acting like, well, kids. Yes they do need to ride safer, but that's just an ongoing matter of socializing young people to be considerate.
There are major problems with the Davenport bike lanes though, and I can understand why some people feel uncomfortable using them.
First, many motorists illegally park their cars in those lanes, meaning that cyclists have to zig-zag around them. Second, some parts of the Davenport bike lane are so narrow that if you ride in the bike lane, you are constantly in the "door zone", making it an even less safe place to ride than the middle of the road of sidewalk, because you might get a car door flung open at you at any time.
There are major issues in this neighbourhood with motorists driving on and parking all over the sidewalks too. I really don't understand why they do this. The tiny bit of pedestrian space on the sidewalks belongs to the pedestrians.
A little bit of courtesy from everyone would go a long way.
I think we need to educate people into using these bike lanes. On Davenport which has a lane there are too many people riding on the sidewalk now. It is common knowledge bike lanes or not bikes belong on the road.
Lansdowne north of Bloor St. is also on the list to get bike lanes. Don't think it will be "narrowed", but the lanes will be reallocated. Will probably happen next year.
The City is also now studying a Bloor /Danforth bikeway that would basically cross the entire city.
This is another example of the City making our area a safer and better area.
1. More bike lanes
2. Slowing the drag racers on that stretch of Dupont down making it safer for everyone and less screaming noisy engines.
3. Safer for people turning off of Campbell.
4. Calming traffic so people start to think of the area as a destination again instead of a highway. This will be great for Boo Radly's patio and Piri Piri's outdoor tent. Hopefully this will lead to other businesses opening.
Lets hope they can Narrow Lansdowne north of Bloor and turn it from a barren highway strip into a beautiful street as they did south.
I noticed last night / this morning that the Dupont St. bike lanes have been painted, between Lansdowne and Dundas (connecting to the freshly-painted Annette St. lanes).
I would expect that these lanes will be fully opened very soon, after some more painting and new signs are installed.
Bishop Morraco definately has an art program. I think the best way to do this is maybe talking to the principle. I walk by it before work everyday. I'll see if I can make an appointment before school ends (which is coming very soon). Ill see how they like it and if they would like to explore the idea further.
ACE> It was a nightmare last night, I had to drive out to Laird Drive at the last minute for a meeting and it was so bad I thought about turning around. It took 18 minutes to go 6 blocks. I will see you at Boo's one time soon i hope. BTW way I will be shucking oysters there in July so drop by.
hi Scott, no, this was a few days ago when the first set of lines was put down. I was at BOO's tonight and the traffic in both directions was quite slow.... it has made it easier to cross dupont to get to boo'S though. lol!
The City of Toronto has a campaign underway at the moment to educate people that it is acutally against the law to cycle on the sidewalk. Only young children with tire sizes under 24 inches/61 cm are permitted to ride their bikes on the sidewalk. You can check out all the details and the fines at http://www.toronto.ca/cycling/sidewalk.htm
Just a couple of notes:
* As for increased congestion and idling. Look at Lansdowne after it was narrowed and bike lanes added, it was jammed packed for months if not for a year. Its not that bad now, however rush hour can be daunting - but hey tell me another spot in the city thats not busy during this time. People will alter their routes over time and it should help aleviate the traffic congestion over time.
* RE: Underpass on Bloor and cyclist: Someone last year kindly removed the "Cyclists Dismount" sign on the south side walk going east. So riders traveling east do not get any notice or warning to dismount. As for cyclists not wanting to go on Bloor - I understand, its dangerous - as in too narrow for both vehicles and cyclists to travel at the same time. However I would like to add experience in there as well: more experience riders will take the road where as less experienced riders will take the sidewalk, in some cases all the way to Lansdowne until they are forced to use the road, as pedestrian traffic increases.
To sum it up for most of you:
Cars vs Bikes vs Pedestrian - welcome to Toronto!
Thanks,
Ranajit
The narrowing is also about slowing traffic down as that section had become a dangerous loud speedway that also contributed to pollution because some could not resist the temptation to drag race along there. My friend owns the bar at Campbell and I have sat on that patio many times and thought "what a noisy dangerous speedway". IN fact this speed reduction brings this section more in line with the traffic patterns and speed on the rest of Dupont possibly helping the Symington to Lansdowne section come to life with actual people and stores again like it used to be.
ace> was it due to the accident on Bloor ? Lansdowne was very congested because of that, as was every other street in the area.
It isn't about either or. EITHER the cyclists get off sidewalks and drive a car therefore adding more pollutants OR pedestrians just have to be really, really understanding of cyclists.
It's about riding one's bike on a sidewalk at such a fast speed, while seeing pedestrians way ahead of oneself and rather than dismounting from said bike and walking pass – oh, I dunno – an old lady with her walker, a toddler ambling along on shaky legs and someone else carrying grocery bags – said cyclist is ringing their bike bell madly so those people can jump out of their way. AND those are the courteous ones. Others don't even bother to ring a warning bell, but just zoom by nearly knocking people down with their speed.
It's about slowing down when there is people ahead and perhaps dismounting and walking pass them. It's about HOW SOME cyclists use the sidewalk at such as fast speed when riding their bikes. Cyclists are more than welcome to the sidewalks, I just wish some would be courteous enough to slow down when passing pedestrians.
Oddly the puzzle of auto congestion is impossible to solve with auto lanes. When you build a large number of tall towers downtown, you increase the population density substantially. By definition there can not be the land available for new roads. Now, if a society has to export it's garbage to a foreign country, you shouldn't be surprised if they are incapable of building out any public transit. Fifty years ago we were capable of building a subway system, but we are too stupid now. So that leaves you with options you may not have previously expected. Ever seen pictures of Hong Kong? In a city, bicycles can travel generally as quickly and much more densely than cars. At this point we need to use more bicycles.
Of course we could pave over our farmland and import more food... Then when that goes bad nobody would miss us.
The most idiotic implementation of a bike lane i have ever seen. Squeezing stop and go traffic down to one lane has created a congested nightmare of smog. I'll take another bike route, thank you.
A group of us are contemplating heading there one night with black concrete paint and "fixing" this stupidity
BlogTO has an article about the Dupont / Annette bike lanes, with a link back to this site too:
http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/06/dupont_narrowed_a_cyclist_and_drivers...
When discussing the relative merits of something like a bicycle path, the relevant issue is the behavior of a group of people. You can tsk me all you want but it may be more productive to understand people's motivation. I live at the corner of Perth and Bloor. I am amazed at the number of westbound bikes who ride up to the sidewalk even on a clean bright day will low traffic level. Your moral objection will not change that. They do not feel they have safe passage along the road even if it looks pretty safe to me. For many of these people the next best option will be to pollute.
I've seen many bikes do things I would not do. But most of the time I think it would be more constructive for people to be more understanding of cyclists.
I am amazed at how patient drivers are with other drivers, but they scream at cyclists who cause them minor inconvenience. Friday I was walking on Bloor and some woman beeped and screamed at a bike who was crossing with the pedestrian signal. Now she was turning left and there was a stopped car 15 feet down the road, so the bike didn't delay her in any significant way. But whoever was right or wrong, the beeping could sound an awful lot like a death threat. (Next time I just might kill you if you get between me and starbucks.)
I don't want to overreact to your comment. Just as I don't shoo pedestrians out of the way, I'm sure you don't make a habit of screaming at some toothless old guy with a milk crate on the back of his bike rattling along slightly faster than a walking pace.
But there is a lot of hyperbole about the menace of bike riders. And lots of people are willing to scream at them. I remember about a year ago a couple of kids rode their bike under the bridge and some big guy with his kid started screaming at them that they were criminals. He went on at terrific volume to demonstrate his rather unfortunate level of education. I felt bad for his kid. I sort of wished I wasn't in such a big hurry at the time, but a futile philosophical conversation would likely not have been very rewarding.
At the moment riding a bike downtown requires a significant level of mental toughness. If you nearly get killed by a dump truck, and wobble up onto the sidewalk to get home you can't be entirely sure some wacko won't unleash a verbal tirade on you while his child watches presumably until you melt and dribble into the nearest drain.
(I don't tend to melt, the last time a taxi actually hit me I gave him a pretty good tirade myself thank you very much. But you might be surprised at how unnerving a near death experience can be.)
If a person is to start using these new bike paths they have to survive their first two months when they will be uncertain, they will make mistakes, and they will likely retreat to the sidewalks on occasion. They need to survive their first two years when they will have an occasional harrowing experience that will make them seriously reconsider this decision. Their friends will helpfully supply a plethora of anecdotes that prove that every misfortune to befall a cyclists is their own fault.
But legend has it that somewhere in the city there is an ax wielding maniac that adjudicates SUV / cyclist disharmonies consistently in favour of the cyclist to the minor damage of the SUV. He travels with a small collection of side mirrors rattling around in a milk crate on the back of a twenty year old rusting squeaking bicycle. Nobody knows where he lives.
You are asking a lot! I suppose you will soon be expecting cyclists to stop at stop signs, signal their turns and stop blocking intersections so vehicles can make right turns on red lights.
I completely understand that some cyclists are fearful to ride that stretch of the underpass because of the traffic BUT as ADULT cyclists, I wish they would WALK with their BIKES on the sidewalk rather than ride on the sidewalk as though it were the road -- then ring their bells to tell pedestrians, and some with small children walking or in strollers to get out of THEIR way. *tsk*
Going under the railway tracks cars often pinch the side in the corner. Things like that discourage people from riding at all. There is a bit of a chicken and egg issue where bike lanes don't seem worthwhile unless there are lots of bikes, but people won't ride bikes if they feel they are risking their lives.
You have to start somewhere. When you do, the first week the traffic will be the worst since people have not started to adjust their routes. I would think traffic would normalize in a week or so but it may take longer before you start seeing significant number of bikes.
Many of the existing bike lanes don't connect very far, I've used Harbord quite a bit but what do you do when it stops. I am guessing the city used Dupont so they could get a fairly long continuous connection without giving up lanes on a more major street like Bloor.
I was on the bike lanes today and the traffic was horrible. Many cars idling. I can't see how limiting vehicles on dupont is somehow a good result. I don't really see how this will result in our area becoming a destination either (?) I'm all for bike lanes, but with cars inching down dupont, an increase of smog is all i can see as a result.
It seems silly that people would refer to dirty diesel and clean coal.
If you want the air to be cleaner, you need to convince people to drive less. Full stop.
The thing I respect about Boone Pickens is that he talks about the energy generation and doesn't avoid inconvenient reality. 'Clean electric' is a deceitful phrase.
It amazes me how often people park cars on the sidewalk on Perth directly across from an open parking spot.
I don't know how much education people need. Usually a bike on the sidewalk is avoiding a specific danger. Turning left from Bloor to Perth looks like a death wish to me. The underpasses seem to intimidate many cyclists. I often see bikes moving away from the road just before the underpass. I also see many cars stopping only a couple of inches from the side of the underpass leaving no room for a bike. The new lanes will be very helpful.
One problem is when bike are riding fast. But they are almost always kids acting like, well, kids. Yes they do need to ride safer, but that's just an ongoing matter of socializing young people to be considerate.
Lorbeth Development Corporation, it’s the same for Bebloor and Brownstones on Bloor.
Merchant Lane was the first of three stages.
Hi there,
Just a FYI. I was walking by the U-Haul site this morning and I saw crews pumping the water out.
Ranajit
I agree. Bikes belong on the road.
There are major problems with the Davenport bike lanes though, and I can understand why some people feel uncomfortable using them.
First, many motorists illegally park their cars in those lanes, meaning that cyclists have to zig-zag around them. Second, some parts of the Davenport bike lane are so narrow that if you ride in the bike lane, you are constantly in the "door zone", making it an even less safe place to ride than the middle of the road of sidewalk, because you might get a car door flung open at you at any time.
There are major issues in this neighbourhood with motorists driving on and parking all over the sidewalks too. I really don't understand why they do this. The tiny bit of pedestrian space on the sidewalks belongs to the pedestrians.
A little bit of courtesy from everyone would go a long way.
I think we need to educate people into using these bike lanes. On Davenport which has a lane there are too many people riding on the sidewalk now. It is common knowledge bike lanes or not bikes belong on the road.
Lansdowne north of Bloor St. is also on the list to get bike lanes. Don't think it will be "narrowed", but the lanes will be reallocated. Will probably happen next year.
The City is also now studying a Bloor /Danforth bikeway that would basically cross the entire city.
This is another example of the City making our area a safer and better area.
1. More bike lanes
2. Slowing the drag racers on that stretch of Dupont down making it safer for everyone and less screaming noisy engines.
3. Safer for people turning off of Campbell.
4. Calming traffic so people start to think of the area as a destination again instead of a highway. This will be great for Boo Radly's patio and Piri Piri's outdoor tent. Hopefully this will lead to other businesses opening.
Lets hope they can Narrow Lansdowne north of Bloor and turn it from a barren highway strip into a beautiful street as they did south.
I noticed last night / this morning that the Dupont St. bike lanes have been painted, between Lansdowne and Dundas (connecting to the freshly-painted Annette St. lanes).
I would expect that these lanes will be fully opened very soon, after some more painting and new signs are installed.
Bishop Morraco definately has an art program. I think the best way to do this is maybe talking to the principle. I walk by it before work everyday. I'll see if I can make an appointment before school ends (which is coming very soon). Ill see how they like it and if they would like to explore the idea further.
thxs,
Ranajit