Low turnout does not relate to higher quality of decision making.
It sends a message that few people care. The result is more likely to be corruption than wisdom.
However I would agree that there is more to it than turnout. A vote that follows a robust discussion is likely to have both a higher level of thought and a higher participation rate.
It is important to find good information. I have been amazed at the number of news agencies that picked up a story that there was an "expert" recommending using a nuclear bomb to stop the oil spill in the gulf. Imagine using a hand grenade to stop a leaky faucet. This guy is no expert, just someone looking for media coverage.
I do believe that when we demand politicians lie to us they will oblige - we can hardly blame them.
They are so afraid of the Jimmy Carter cardigan image that they will avoid meaningful discussion of energy. Nobody thinks about WHY we are drilling 18 thousand feet bellow the Gulf of Mexico and ripping up half of Alberta for bitumen when light sweet crude used to be easy to get. Politicians are not going to tell us. They don't have to.
So education and discussion are important.
But simple attention is also worth something. If they are left unattended, politicians will start rolling back the rights that we think we have won. Slowly at first. Maybe using DRM to get our computers to rollback our privacy. Then maybe they might try a "non-controversial" rollback on reproductive rights.
I think it is important to keep many eyes on politicians. Voter turnout is a symbol of that.
Playback Magazine, for the broadcast industry, also has an extensive article about the facilities they are building if you can find it. Bottom line, a big deal.
Gamasutra, a website about the gaming industry, has a really extensive article about the Ubisoft article opening up on Wallace Ave. I haven't actually read the whole thing myself yet (not really interested in the gaming details) but it's interesting to skim through to get an idea of what's going in to this place and the type of stuff they're working on.
Another way of looking at this is through the lens of history. Do we owe it to those who fought for our right to vote to exercise our right to vote? I think we do. What did my grandfather and Uncles and all the other men and women who fought and suffered and died in WW2 do it for, if not our right to vote? They didn't go to Europe to defend our right to processed food, they did it to defend democracy from a maniacal dictator. Our vote is the fundamental basis of this system. Flawed as it may be it's a lot better than having Hitlers grandson rule over us. For all the women out there, do you remember the Suffragettes? They fought for the right to vote for women and it wasn't that long ago. They were jailed, beaten, ostracized and worse so women today could vote.
I believe it is disrespectful to all of the people mentioned above, their suffering and their memory not to vote. And really, how hard is it to take 20 minutes every 2 years or so to go put an 'X' on a piece of paper?
Thanks Michael for stating clearly, for those who remain suspicious, your response to unfair, misinformed accusations. Sometimes people have nothing better to do than complain anything about everything from their soapbox. Offering feedback is always encouraged in forums like this. It does however get testy when accusations (mostly unintentional) get thrown around. Never, ever, will everyone be happy about whats going on in the community. One persons, enviromentalist is anothers tree-hugging potsmoking hippie! We at Boo's welcome all development in the JT as long as it meets the needs of the majority. This area, in a very short time, has grown substantially and will continue to grow. We are a lucky bunch to be living here, now. M&S
Hey neighbours! Michael & Shelley from Boo Radley's. Our summer hours are as follows.
Mon - Sat. Noon til 2:00 am
Sun. Noon til Midnight
Full kitchen - Sun -Wed Noon til 11:oo pm
Thurs, Fri, Sat Noon til Midnight
Wings and Poutine available til close every night!
We are also taking advantage of the extended hours for World Cup play! Don't forget about our third Anniversary Party Sat. June 5th!. See ya there! M&S
Democracy has come to mean in most cases the right not to vote, not to be informed, not to participate at all. This works when those that do vote represent a picture of the whole but can be subverted when a particular issue drives people to the polls (read "What's Wrong With Kansas?" which explains how so-called "culture wars" were manufactured to encourage voters to go to the polls and vote Right, even though it was not in their economic best interest to do so).
Unless there is 100% mandated voting, the wishes and mindset of the un-voters is basically unknown and nobody can be accused of anything if less than 100% of the population participates because you just don't know. The people who chose to be involved should never be blamed for those who don't (although its a common smear).
To me voting is a gift. We live in a democracy and you should have a say who runs your Country, City or Ward. Yes, for some it's a chore to go out and vote, but many feel that want to vote. Not only is this a right, but a privilege. Many countries around the world don't have this right. Others that do, will line up for hours just to vote, they feel it's their duty. We need to encourage citizens to vote. Mike some politicians might support your idea of a small group of informed voters, this is how some might get elected. For me having as many voters out there gives the area a more diverse opinion. I will do all I can to make sure we get as many residents to get out and vote. Plus it gives them bitching rights.
At the same time trying to inform them and getting residents involved and empowering to care for their hood. JF
I'm not that concerned about voter turnout. I would rather see city councillors elected by a small number of informed voters than a large number of people who are just voting because they feel they have to. For that reason I don't like get out the vote campaigns. Politics and public policy aren't for everybody. If some people would rather watch a hockey game or a movie than go to a political meeting, I say leave them be.
I agree with Ken, When I heard the comments from residents. I told many that I disgree with them and that there votes can make a difference and that this is a privilege living in a democracy. There are many reason's I guess why many don't vote for municipal election. For some, many associate people and party. I remember people asking, which party is so and so associated with.
I hope the City does a better job in promoting the election and the importantance for voting and that they do that as many languages as possible. WE keep hearing about how low the turn out is for Municipal Elections, then let's change that. JF
I just tried to post the following on https://www.junctiontriangle.ca/node/719 and got "The spam filter installed on this site is currently unavailable. Per site policy, we are unable to accept new submissions until that problem is resolved. Please try resubmitting the form in a couple of minutes."
Could you please post for me? Thanks
Ken
Re: Ward 18 All Candidates Meeting
Just want to say I appreciated all the hard work done by the organizers and the promotion done by all the candidates, as well as on this website.
A major concern of mine is Jack's comment that: "When I was delivering the flyers I had many residents say, they don't trust politicians and it won't make a difference who is in"
This is the core of our growing voter apathy - or is it disenchantement/disgust? with elections.
I suggest we all need to do more to sell the importance of voting and we to get the message out something like:
* You certainly won't make a difference if YOU don't vote
* Not voting can hurt you more than voting - YOU will have to live with the consequences of other people's choices.
* You may not trust politicians, but sometimes the untrustworthy politicians who get elected trust YOU not to vote
Still working on this, but maybe some of you have better arguments for the importance of voting. I really want to see a better voter turnout than last time.
It's hard to tell with meetings how will residents will react and how many will show. Like Mike said, 80 people showed, to me that is good.
Other reason for the low turn out:
-Could be the negative feed back from others.
-Maybe seeing it was Virgina and I organizing it, they didn't know what to expect and people were protesting.
-Could be the location, been the north tip of the ward.
-When I was delivering the flyers I had many residents say, they don't trust politicians and it won't make a difference who is in.
When I was talking to Donna early today, we suggested maybe Kent or Bloor Street school for the Mayor's Debate. Making it close to the subway. Central for everyone.
I have a list of people who are in media, who might make a good moderator. I think Virginia did a good job, but she agreed with me today about getting someone professional for the Mayor's debate.
Katie asked about the interpreters, yes all 5 Interpreters were there, but sent away after no one needing any Interpreters. They were not upset, as I warned them ahead of time that we many or may not them. But I did meet some good people for future meeting.
At least we informed residents about the meeting, regardless if they decide to show or not. My mom was happy to get it in Italian and so were her neighbours.
I got feed back the candidates and only one mentioned how great it was that I reconized others in the neigbourhood. JF
To be fair to Katie's observation "...that not everyone reads their mail or is willing to contribute.", approx. 80 people showing up from 1500 flyers being sent out still means that it's hard to get people to participate in community meetings.
I wanted to go the debate but couldn't because my partner worked late and I had to care for our kids.
When the debate started I counted 40 people including some people who were there with the candidates, but when I looked behind me later the room had filled up. There were still empty seats but there were at least double as many people as at the beginning. Let's be conservative and say there were 80 audience members. I consider that a good turnout for an event like this because in my experience political meetings don't attract a lot of people.
Michael's right about the assiduousness of my note-taking. :) Have lots to post..hopefully will get around to it later today or tomorrow. Will quickly comment that this was a well-executed event.
I too was at the debate and agree that Virginia did a good job as mediator. I have to disagree that the turn out was good. I saw a lot of empty seats in the back. This is proof that not everyone reads their mail or is willing to contribute. It was also unclear for me who the interpreters were. Having arrived a little late I might have missed that announcement. For the Mayoral Debate it might be a good idea that each interpreter hold a double sided sign identifying them with the language they are interpreting for and seated some where near the back so as not to interupt others by talking/ interpreting. They do something of this fashion at the TDSB meetings.
Hey Mike thanks for you input. Yes both Virginia and I tried very hard. I should also include Joan Tintor the Time Keeper in this who had the hardest role inthe debate. I won't lie, it wasn't easy not saying anything, but this wasn't about us, but the residents. I was also glad to see a good turn out, we recieved good response and out of the 1500 flyers we distributed, we had a hand full of complaints and everyone read them on the SJT website. Now seeing the success of this debate. I am now trying to organized a Mayor's Candidate debate in Ward18/Davenport. I am now working on the scheduling with each camp. So far I have a few committments.
So if anyone has any input or suggestions, please pass them along. This won't happen till September unfortunately. Thank you for all those who came out. JF
I went to Tuesday's all-candidates debate at Casa da Madeira. Virginia Novak was the moderator. All things considered the event went well. Jack and Virginia deserve credit for a job well done. It wasn't perfect but I left feeling I knew who were the strong candidates (in my opinion Kevin Beaulieu, Frank de Jong and Ana Bailao) and who wasn't. Ken Wood isn't a strong candidate but he was articulate and had some interesting things to say for which I give him credit. I saw Vic assiduously taking notes so I'm guessing we can expect a full report soon. There was a good turnout. The room was almost full. It would be nice to have a view more of these, but that would require someone to take the initiative and do the work. It won't be me. :-)
Here is how it works. I disagree with things that I think are wrong and I agree with things that I think are right. Very rarely though is one person 100% wrong or right all the time and personally I am open to changing or bending myself as things change or new information emerges. Twisting in the wind in my book means being flexible but staying true to my core values which are actually my true core values, something that seeks no approval from others, but exists for me to be me. It is better to twist a bit in the wind than be a fence.
My comment was suggesting that maybe we could use a bit less "debate" and a bit more action. I am getting tired of the lack of positive news here.
Roy, do you want me to print your posting and show the candidates or do you want to ask the candidates yourself. Let me know call me at home home# 416-534-0602.
We are also hoping to do a Mayor Canadiadtes Debate in Ward18, we were going to do a double debate night, but CP24 is doing ther's tonight and we didn't want to divide the Mayors. This Ward or part of the City is one part of Canada's largest City, we a very importnat part of the City. This community is known right accross the City. JF
I think it's a first step and if we want to see more debates in the neighbourhood, I suggest we create an atmosphere where we can make it happen. I think that East of the Tracks Neighbourhood Action or Junction Triangle would be just two groups who would possibly put on another debate. I feel that one question we should ask the candidates tonight is how much time they are willing to commit to having all candidates debates between now and the election. I'm sure we can organize a couple more before Election Day and I'm willing to help.
In fact I would like to put forward the idea that we have a few more debates, but also have evenings when we could go and meet the candidates informally, say at Boo's or the Library and just grab a coffee and talk with the individually on where they stand and what our concerns are. Debates are great, but sometimes it's more important to have a brief chat with a candidate. And while it would be great if all could be available for the casual get together, it wouldn't mean they'd have to be there either. It would be a set date and time and people would just know that the candidates are at the library the third Thursday of the month, there's coffee and a chance to see where they are at.
Low turnout does not relate to higher quality of decision making.
It sends a message that few people care. The result is more likely to be corruption than wisdom.
However I would agree that there is more to it than turnout. A vote that follows a robust discussion is likely to have both a higher level of thought and a higher participation rate.
It is important to find good information. I have been amazed at the number of news agencies that picked up a story that there was an "expert" recommending using a nuclear bomb to stop the oil spill in the gulf. Imagine using a hand grenade to stop a leaky faucet. This guy is no expert, just someone looking for media coverage.
I do believe that when we demand politicians lie to us they will oblige - we can hardly blame them.
They are so afraid of the Jimmy Carter cardigan image that they will avoid meaningful discussion of energy. Nobody thinks about WHY we are drilling 18 thousand feet bellow the Gulf of Mexico and ripping up half of Alberta for bitumen when light sweet crude used to be easy to get. Politicians are not going to tell us. They don't have to.
So education and discussion are important.
But simple attention is also worth something. If they are left unattended, politicians will start rolling back the rights that we think we have won. Slowly at first. Maybe using DRM to get our computers to rollback our privacy. Then maybe they might try a "non-controversial" rollback on reproductive rights.
I think it is important to keep many eyes on politicians. Voter turnout is a symbol of that.
Playback Magazine, for the broadcast industry, also has an extensive article about the facilities they are building if you can find it. Bottom line, a big deal.
Gamasutra, a website about the gaming industry, has a really extensive article about the Ubisoft article opening up on Wallace Ave. I haven't actually read the whole thing myself yet (not really interested in the gaming details) but it's interesting to skim through to get an idea of what's going in to this place and the type of stuff they're working on.
You can read the article here:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5229/building_on_conviction_inside...
Another way of looking at this is through the lens of history. Do we owe it to those who fought for our right to vote to exercise our right to vote? I think we do. What did my grandfather and Uncles and all the other men and women who fought and suffered and died in WW2 do it for, if not our right to vote? They didn't go to Europe to defend our right to processed food, they did it to defend democracy from a maniacal dictator. Our vote is the fundamental basis of this system. Flawed as it may be it's a lot better than having Hitlers grandson rule over us. For all the women out there, do you remember the Suffragettes? They fought for the right to vote for women and it wasn't that long ago. They were jailed, beaten, ostracized and worse so women today could vote.
I believe it is disrespectful to all of the people mentioned above, their suffering and their memory not to vote. And really, how hard is it to take 20 minutes every 2 years or so to go put an 'X' on a piece of paper?
Jeff
Thanks Michael for stating clearly, for those who remain suspicious, your response to unfair, misinformed accusations. Sometimes people have nothing better to do than complain anything about everything from their soapbox. Offering feedback is always encouraged in forums like this. It does however get testy when accusations (mostly unintentional) get thrown around. Never, ever, will everyone be happy about whats going on in the community. One persons, enviromentalist is anothers tree-hugging potsmoking hippie! We at Boo's welcome all development in the JT as long as it meets the needs of the majority. This area, in a very short time, has grown substantially and will continue to grow. We are a lucky bunch to be living here, now. M&S
Hey neighbours! Michael & Shelley from Boo Radley's. Our summer hours are as follows.
Mon - Sat. Noon til 2:00 am
Sun. Noon til Midnight
Full kitchen - Sun -Wed Noon til 11:oo pm
Thurs, Fri, Sat Noon til Midnight
Wings and Poutine available til close every night!
We are also taking advantage of the extended hours for World Cup play! Don't forget about our third Anniversary Party Sat. June 5th!. See ya there! M&S
The Bloordale Press has a writeup about the meeting, including some video of the candidates' opening remarks:
http://thebloordalepress.wordpress.com/politics/640-2/
Democracy has come to mean in most cases the right not to vote, not to be informed, not to participate at all. This works when those that do vote represent a picture of the whole but can be subverted when a particular issue drives people to the polls (read "What's Wrong With Kansas?" which explains how so-called "culture wars" were manufactured to encourage voters to go to the polls and vote Right, even though it was not in their economic best interest to do so).
Unless there is 100% mandated voting, the wishes and mindset of the un-voters is basically unknown and nobody can be accused of anything if less than 100% of the population participates because you just don't know. The people who chose to be involved should never be blamed for those who don't (although its a common smear).
To me voting is a gift. We live in a democracy and you should have a say who runs your Country, City or Ward. Yes, for some it's a chore to go out and vote, but many feel that want to vote. Not only is this a right, but a privilege. Many countries around the world don't have this right. Others that do, will line up for hours just to vote, they feel it's their duty. We need to encourage citizens to vote. Mike some politicians might support your idea of a small group of informed voters, this is how some might get elected. For me having as many voters out there gives the area a more diverse opinion. I will do all I can to make sure we get as many residents to get out and vote. Plus it gives them bitching rights.
At the same time trying to inform them and getting residents involved and empowering to care for their hood. JF
I'm not that concerned about voter turnout. I would rather see city councillors elected by a small number of informed voters than a large number of people who are just voting because they feel they have to. For that reason I don't like get out the vote campaigns. Politics and public policy aren't for everybody. If some people would rather watch a hockey game or a movie than go to a political meeting, I say leave them be.
I agree with Ken, When I heard the comments from residents. I told many that I disgree with them and that there votes can make a difference and that this is a privilege living in a democracy. There are many reason's I guess why many don't vote for municipal election. For some, many associate people and party. I remember people asking, which party is so and so associated with.
I hope the City does a better job in promoting the election and the importantance for voting and that they do that as many languages as possible. WE keep hearing about how low the turn out is for Municipal Elections, then let's change that. JF
Hi Jack,
I just tried to post the following on https://www.junctiontriangle.ca/node/719 and got "The spam filter installed on this site is currently unavailable. Per site policy, we are unable to accept new submissions until that problem is resolved. Please try resubmitting the form in a couple of minutes."
Could you please post for me? Thanks
Ken
Re: Ward 18 All Candidates Meeting
Just want to say I appreciated all the hard work done by the organizers and the promotion done by all the candidates, as well as on this website.
A major concern of mine is Jack's comment that: "When I was delivering the flyers I had many residents say, they don't trust politicians and it won't make a difference who is in"
This is the core of our growing voter apathy - or is it disenchantement/disgust? with elections.
I suggest we all need to do more to sell the importance of voting and we to get the message out something like:
* You certainly won't make a difference if YOU don't vote
* Not voting can hurt you more than voting - YOU will have to live with the consequences of other people's choices.
* You may not trust politicians, but sometimes the untrustworthy politicians who get elected trust YOU not to vote
Still working on this, but maybe some of you have better arguments for the importance of voting. I really want to see a better voter turnout than last time.
NOTE: Comments have disabled on this item now. For post-meeting followup comments, please go here.
It's hard to tell with meetings how will residents will react and how many will show. Like Mike said, 80 people showed, to me that is good.
Other reason for the low turn out:
-Could be the negative feed back from others.
-Maybe seeing it was Virgina and I organizing it, they didn't know what to expect and people were protesting.
-Could be the location, been the north tip of the ward.
-When I was delivering the flyers I had many residents say, they don't trust politicians and it won't make a difference who is in.
When I was talking to Donna early today, we suggested maybe Kent or Bloor Street school for the Mayor's Debate. Making it close to the subway. Central for everyone.
I have a list of people who are in media, who might make a good moderator. I think Virginia did a good job, but she agreed with me today about getting someone professional for the Mayor's debate.
Katie asked about the interpreters, yes all 5 Interpreters were there, but sent away after no one needing any Interpreters. They were not upset, as I warned them ahead of time that we many or may not them. But I did meet some good people for future meeting.
At least we informed residents about the meeting, regardless if they decide to show or not. My mom was happy to get it in Italian and so were her neighbours.
I got feed back the candidates and only one mentioned how great it was that I reconized others in the neigbourhood. JF
It sounds like a very good turnout considering the election is still 5 or 6 months away.
To be fair to Katie's observation "...that not everyone reads their mail or is willing to contribute.", approx. 80 people showing up from 1500 flyers being sent out still means that it's hard to get people to participate in community meetings.
I wanted to go the debate but couldn't because my partner worked late and I had to care for our kids.
When the debate started I counted 40 people including some people who were there with the candidates, but when I looked behind me later the room had filled up. There were still empty seats but there were at least double as many people as at the beginning. Let's be conservative and say there were 80 audience members. I consider that a good turnout for an event like this because in my experience political meetings don't attract a lot of people.
Michael's right about the assiduousness of my note-taking. :) Have lots to post..hopefully will get around to it later today or tomorrow. Will quickly comment that this was a well-executed event.
I too was at the debate and agree that Virginia did a good job as mediator. I have to disagree that the turn out was good. I saw a lot of empty seats in the back. This is proof that not everyone reads their mail or is willing to contribute. It was also unclear for me who the interpreters were. Having arrived a little late I might have missed that announcement. For the Mayoral Debate it might be a good idea that each interpreter hold a double sided sign identifying them with the language they are interpreting for and seated some where near the back so as not to interupt others by talking/ interpreting. They do something of this fashion at the TDSB meetings.
Hey Mike thanks for you input. Yes both Virginia and I tried very hard. I should also include Joan Tintor the Time Keeper in this who had the hardest role inthe debate. I won't lie, it wasn't easy not saying anything, but this wasn't about us, but the residents. I was also glad to see a good turn out, we recieved good response and out of the 1500 flyers we distributed, we had a hand full of complaints and everyone read them on the SJT website. Now seeing the success of this debate. I am now trying to organized a Mayor's Candidate debate in Ward18/Davenport. I am now working on the scheduling with each camp. So far I have a few committments.
So if anyone has any input or suggestions, please pass them along. This won't happen till September unfortunately. Thank you for all those who came out. JF
I went to Tuesday's all-candidates debate at Casa da Madeira. Virginia Novak was the moderator. All things considered the event went well. Jack and Virginia deserve credit for a job well done. It wasn't perfect but I left feeling I knew who were the strong candidates (in my opinion Kevin Beaulieu, Frank de Jong and Ana Bailao) and who wasn't. Ken Wood isn't a strong candidate but he was articulate and had some interesting things to say for which I give him credit. I saw Vic assiduously taking notes so I'm guessing we can expect a full report soon. There was a good turnout. The room was almost full. It would be nice to have a view more of these, but that would require someone to take the initiative and do the work. It won't be me. :-)
Here is how it works. I disagree with things that I think are wrong and I agree with things that I think are right. Very rarely though is one person 100% wrong or right all the time and personally I am open to changing or bending myself as things change or new information emerges. Twisting in the wind in my book means being flexible but staying true to my core values which are actually my true core values, something that seeks no approval from others, but exists for me to be me. It is better to twist a bit in the wind than be a fence.
My comment was suggesting that maybe we could use a bit less "debate" and a bit more action. I am getting tired of the lack of positive news here.
Roy, do you want me to print your posting and show the candidates or do you want to ask the candidates yourself. Let me know call me at home home# 416-534-0602.
We are also hoping to do a Mayor Canadiadtes Debate in Ward18, we were going to do a double debate night, but CP24 is doing ther's tonight and we didn't want to divide the Mayors. This Ward or part of the City is one part of Canada's largest City, we a very importnat part of the City. This community is known right accross the City. JF
I think it's a first step and if we want to see more debates in the neighbourhood, I suggest we create an atmosphere where we can make it happen. I think that East of the Tracks Neighbourhood Action or Junction Triangle would be just two groups who would possibly put on another debate. I feel that one question we should ask the candidates tonight is how much time they are willing to commit to having all candidates debates between now and the election. I'm sure we can organize a couple more before Election Day and I'm willing to help.
In fact I would like to put forward the idea that we have a few more debates, but also have evenings when we could go and meet the candidates informally, say at Boo's or the Library and just grab a coffee and talk with the individually on where they stand and what our concerns are. Debates are great, but sometimes it's more important to have a brief chat with a candidate. And while it would be great if all could be available for the casual get together, it wouldn't mean they'd have to be there either. It would be a set date and time and people would just know that the candidates are at the library the third Thursday of the month, there's coffee and a chance to see where they are at.
I will bring this up at the meeting tonight.
r.
wow, that makes no sense and I believe there are some good candidates there.